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I'm not one to fight over KCK and KCMO. I like all of it and the surrounding communities. As far as preference for living, I'm in the minority because I liked living in Argentine, which is part of KCK and south of the river. I like north of the river too, but I can't imagine living there. I've lived in Waldo in KCMO and Parkville, MO and both were fine, but I was far happier and found life to be more peaceful in Argentine.
Argentine isn't all that bad, but it has changed a lot in the recent history. The grocery store and Sonic has closed and the "downtown" area has really fallen. Although, Jalisco and Mickey's Surplus are still open! Also, the area has has truly transformed into majority Hispanic, at least the older/northern parts, which is also true of Central Ave and Armourdale. It's funny you brought up something actually about Kansas City, KS. This thread has mostly had JoCo playing the role of the "KS" in this thread, even though it has nothing to do with Kansas City, KS.
We hit KCK more often lately, and I'm not talking Legends/racetrack area. Argentine/Armourdale/Central Ave have great Mexi restaurants and markets. There are tortillerias bakeries and carniceria markets just as I've seen in S Mexico. Can get Mexi-style cuts at some meat counters. We shop KCK Latino hoods whenever doing anything involving tortillas or carnitas.
You can get real street tacos served with fresh corn tortillas, some places make the tortillas on order on the spot, like El Camino Real in downtown KCK...
SW Blvd in KCMO has a great deal of Mexi population/restaurants too but a majority cater to gringos, 3rd+ generation Mexicans or are the KC Cheese Mex thing. A couple good true Mexi ones have popped up though like Rico's Tacos Lupe and the market up on Summit (can't remember name). El Patron is a good CaliMex thing.
KCMO is stronger with Asian markets - especially in River Market to Columbus Park to NE Side area. KCMO also getting a lot more MidEast/Med restaurants popping up... http://forum.kcrag.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=18067
It's easy to be fast growing and affluent when you can just syphon off a core county next door while having the ability to ignore basic metropolitan responsibilities that most major developed counties have to deal with. JoCo has mastered such practice by acting as if they were 500 miles away unless they want something (be it sports, culture, entertainment etc or a company to poach).
The "affluence and jobs" landed in the lap of JoCo mostly do to the geography and the lack of regional cooperation they have with the rest of metropolitan KC. Not to mention the fact that the county has done a tremendous job of picking and choosing which demographics (and races) it wanted to allow into the county and remained one of the largest mostly white "core" metro counties in the midwest. We are not talking about an outer suburb like Cass County, but the second largest county in the metro probably now the one with the largest economy.
Long ago, JoCo decided to be KCMO's biggest competitor (and really enemy) and decided to take on kcmo and steal its economy with zero regard to what's in the best interest of the metropolitan area as a whole or even themselves in the long run. So much of what is in JoCo has original roots in Jackson County and to this day they pay un-godly amounts of money to buy kcmo companies yet wont even show up to a transit planning meeting. They even thought they could have their own commercial airport (failed) and thought they needed their own major convention center (failing).
What JoCo has done and continues to do can hardly be called amazing or special.
Take a bunch of flat farmland and stick it across an imaginary state line from any major city in the nation. I mean right next to the core of the city and then go to war with that city economically while hiding behind that state line. The power you get from such a geographic gift is incredible and you can either take full advantage of that gift and go to battle with the city or go a more passive route and grow "with" metropolitan KC. JoCo chose the first option and that's all that JoCo has to really be proud of.
You sure would think it would be more affluent. Yet the county is still barely on the national radar. It's still nothing more than a tumor on the side of kcmo probably doing more harm than good to the metro as a whole. For a county that will hand out 50 million dollars for 400 jobs (half of which already live in the county) they don't get many takers from outside of KCMO because the place is not as desirable as people there like to think. Trust me, KC would still have 2 million people and 1 million jobs if JoCo didn't exist. They would just be in other counties and probably contributing to a better metro area with better regional cooperation, a more lively downtown, more regional transit, cultural taxes etc (see denver) and KC would probably be competing with places like Denver and Minneapolis rather than Kansas in its own back yard.
It's only going to get worse as JoCo passes Jackson County in population. As much as KCMO wants to build up the city, when half your metro has no interest in anything but themselves and will actually harm the core city to their benefit, KC will eventually get passed up by places like Indianapolis, Nashville and Charlotte where entire metros are on the same page and there is still a regional focus on the core city (despite typical suburban growth) just like KC was passed by Minneapolis, Atlanta and Denver decades ago.
Regional cooperation? Just imagine Royals, Chiefs, the Plaza, Kauffman Center, Nelson-Atkins, Union Station, Power & Light, Sprint Center, without the influx of money from Johnson County. Whether you like it or not, Johnson County is a suburb of Kansas City. I know you hate Kansas and you hate Johnson County, but things would be pretty sad for Kansas City, Missouri if no one from Johnson County spent money there.
Regional cooperation? Just imagine Royals, Chiefs, the Plaza, Kauffman Center, Nelson-Atkins, Union Station, Power & Light, Sprint Center, without the influx of money from Johnson County. Whether you like it or not, Johnson County is a suburb of Kansas City. I know you hate Kansas and you hate Johnson County, but things would be pretty sad for Kansas City, Missouri if no one from Johnson County spent money there.
But like I said, if JoCo did not exist, those people would still live in the KC area, they would just live in other counties. If you think that KC would be 1.5 million today rather than 2.1 million people if JoCo was a lake, you are nuts.
If there was no JoCo, the northland would have another 200k, east jackson would have another 200k or maybe KCK would have some more built up suburban areas.
All those office parks in JoCo? They would be up by the airport or out along I-470 or better yet still in the core of kcmo. The KC area would simply spread out in different directions.
JoCo is there because of KCMO, not the other way around.
At the same time, JoCo is more than just a suburb. They are now the second largest county in the metro. They just don't act like it.
Just as much "money" flows to the sports teams, arts venues etc from the MO suburbs as the KS suburbs, yet the people in MO also help fund the venues. Without that base support, there would be no royals or chiefs or zoo for joco people to show up to and save the day. If the entire metro area funded those things, maybe there would be room in kcmo's or jackson counties sales tax to improve roads or build transit.
But like I said, if JoCo did not exist, those people would still live in the KC area, they would just live in other counties. If you think that KC would be 1.5 million today rather than 2.1 million people if JoCo was a lake, you are nuts.
If there was no JoCo, the northland would have another 200k, east jackson would have another 200k or maybe KCK would have some more built up suburban areas.
All those office parks in JoCo? They would be up by the airport or out along I-470 or better yet still in the core of kcmo. The KC area would simply spread out in different directions.
JoCo is there because of KCMO, not the other way around.
At the same time, JoCo is more than just a suburb. They are now the second largest county in the metro. They just don't act like it.
Not necessarily. A lot of people are here because they specifically like Johnson County. I can't say that I would be living in this area if not for Johnson County.
The point remains, you hate Johnson County but there is a lot of Johnson County money that helps support Kansas City. Why is it a problem to you that Johnson County exists, rather than being a big lake like you would like?
Not necessarily. A lot of people are here because they specifically like Johnson County. I can't say that I would be living in this area if not for Johnson County.
The point remains, you hate Johnson County but there is a lot of Johnson County money that helps support Kansas City. Why is it a problem to you that Johnson County exists, rather than being a big lake like you would like?
Not buying it. No way. You are basically saying that KC would have turned into a buffalo had it not been for JoCo. Why? Why would a city like KC which leans more western become so economically depressed because some suburban county did not exist?
KC would be about the same size today. I actually think the metro would be larger because KC lost a LOT of ground in the late 80’s and 90’s while other cities were re-discovering their urban cores and bringing in a lot of young people and companies were investing in central cities, KC was sprawling into JoCo at the expense of the urban core. The metro has not grown that much, actually compared to other spread out cities west of the Mississippi and down south, Metro KC has barely grown at all. KC was once a major metro area. Now it’s barely in the top 30-35. KC didn’t really start losing so much ground nationally till JoCo took off. During the boom years of JoCo, the rest of KC was either stagnant or losing people. KC as a whole was falling fast. Back when JoCo wasn’t much bigger than Raytown, KC did just fine supporting more pro sports teams than it has now.
Only somebody from JoC would even think that JoCo is what has kept KC going for the past 30-40 years. When in fact, I think the way KC has grown into JoCo has probably done more harm than good to the metro as a whole.
Try to imagine if Denver had done the same thing as KC did. Imagine Arapahoe or Jefferson County in metro Denver being aggressive neighbors rather than the more cooperating neighbors they are. Imagine if they did not participate in regional taxes that fund the stadiums and museums. Imagine if they were poaching Denver companies so regularly that places like the Denver Tech Center and downtown were half their current size. Imagine if they could hide behind political boundaries to avoid all metropolitan issues from school desegregation to transit. Imagine Denver with no regional light rail and a very fragmented metro bus system that barely exists outside of downtown denver. Imagine if the capital of CO was on the side of those suburbs and did what they could to grow those suburban counties at whatever cost it may be to the city of Denver.
I imagine a city (and metro area) that is smaller and less vibrant today, a downtown that pretty much sucks and a less desirable metro area overall even though those counties may be twice their current size and they are as big as Denver County today. But they would have lots of people in Jefferson County speaking highly of themselves for supporting the Rockies? Oh wait, the Rockies would not be there because their stadium was built with a regional tax. So they would speak highly of themselves for supporting the Broncos at least and rip on Denver for not having a transit system or for having a dead urban core, but Denver did build a new football stadium instead of spending that money on light rail, but now has high sales taxes while those suburban counties are out bragging about building 15 million dollar stop lights at suburban intersections.
Hmm. Yea, Denver would be different. But it would have way more suburban office parks then they have now! and a lot more people that would have no clue what a regional metropolitan area "should" act like
Not necessarily. A lot of people are here because they specifically like Johnson County. I can't say that I would be living in this area if not for Johnson County.
The point remains, you hate Johnson County but there is a lot of Johnson County money that helps support Kansas City. Why is it a problem to you that Johnson County exists, rather than being a big lake like you would like?
A half million people fail to recognize his vision of utopia and he simply cannot cope or accept it. A half million people know that Johnson county living is better than Kansas City living and better than Denver living, weather and geography aside, and his life's quest is to right that "wrong".
Same copy and pasted blather for 5 years now and, like a Terminator, he will not stop as long as he has an account here. I don't know what we can do outside of leaving the theater when he walks on stage. It's really sad.
My post is in reply to luz and is on topic. She is free to reply with her opinions and we will continue this debate for another 5 years with no hard feelings against one another.
Your post is nothing but an attack on me and adds nothing to the thread, as usual. If anybody here should scare people out of the thread, it's you and I would run off and report you and cry to the moderators like you do, but I'm not 12 years old.
I never said KC was "better" or "utopia" and I said that if JoCo did not exist, most of the people in JoCo would simply be living in similar areas in other counties. I do think that the KC area as a whole and the urban core of KCMO would be a more vibrant place today if JoCo was not the way it is. You can argue that and give me your point of view or you can act like a child.
Here is the post again in case you missed it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo
Not buying it. No way. You are basically saying that KC would have turned into a buffalo had it not been for JoCo. Why? Why would a city like KC which leans more western become so economically depressed because some suburban county did not exist?
KC would be about the same size today. I actually think the metro would be larger because KC lost a LOT of ground in the late 80’s and 90’s while other cities were re-discovering their urban cores and bringing in a lot of young people and companies were investing in central cities, KC was sprawling into JoCo at the expense of the urban core. The metro has not grown that much, actually compared to other spread out cities west of the Mississippi and down south, Metro KC has barely grown at all. KC was once a major metro area. Now it’s barely in the top 30-35. KC didn’t really start losing so much ground nationally till JoCo took off. During the boom years of JoCo, the rest of KC was either stagnant or losing people. KC as a whole was falling fast. Back when JoCo wasn’t much bigger than Raytown, KC did just fine supporting more pro sports teams than it has now.
Only somebody from JoC would even think that JoCo is what has kept KC going for the past 30-40 years. When in fact, I think the way KC has grown into JoCo has probably done more harm than good to the metro as a whole.
Try to imagine if Denver had done the same thing as KC did. Imagine Arapahoe or Jefferson County in metro Denver being aggressive neighbors rather than the more cooperating neighbors they are. Imagine if they did not participate in regional taxes that fund the stadiums and museums. Imagine if they were poaching Denver companies so regularly that places like the Denver Tech Center and downtown were half their current size. Imagine if they could hide behind political boundaries to avoid all metropolitan issues from school desegregation to transit. Imagine Denver with no regional light rail and a very fragmented metro bus system that barely exists outside of downtown denver. Imagine if the capital of CO was on the side of those suburbs and did what they could to grow those suburban counties at whatever cost it may be to the city of Denver.
I imagine a city (and metro area) that is smaller and less vibrant today, a downtown that pretty much sucks and a less desirable metro area overall even though those counties may be twice their current size and they are as big as Denver County today. But they would have lots of people in Jefferson County speaking highly of themselves for supporting the Rockies? Oh wait, the Rockies would not be there because their stadium was built with a regional tax. So they would speak highly of themselves for supporting the Broncos at least and rip on Denver for not having a transit system or for having a dead urban core, but Denver did build a new football stadium instead of spending that money on light rail, but now has high sales taxes while those suburban counties are out bragging about building 15 million dollar stop lights at suburban intersections.
Hmm. Yea, Denver would be different. But it would have way more suburban office parks then they have now! and a lot more people that would have no clue what a regional metropolitan area "should" act like
Not buying it. No way. You are basically saying that KC would have turned into a buffalo had it not been for JoCo. Why? Why would a city like KC which leans more western become so economically depressed because some suburban county did not exist?
KC would be about the same size today. I actually think the metro would be larger because KC lost a LOT of ground in the late 80’s and 90’s while other cities were re-discovering their urban cores and bringing in a lot of young people and companies were investing in central cities, KC was sprawling into JoCo at the expense of the urban core. The metro has not grown that much, actually compared to other spread out cities west of the Mississippi and down south, Metro KC has barely grown at all. KC was once a major metro area. Now it’s barely in the top 30-35. KC didn’t really start losing so much ground nationally till JoCo took off. During the boom years of JoCo, the rest of KC was either stagnant or losing people. KC as a whole was falling fast. Back when JoCo wasn’t much bigger than Raytown, KC did just fine supporting more pro sports teams than it has now.
Only somebody from JoC would even think that JoCo is what has kept KC going for the past 30-40 years. When in fact, I think the way KC has grown into JoCo has probably done more harm than good to the metro as a whole.
First off, I don't think it's reasonable to assume Luz's opinion was formed solely based on their residence. That completely negates the points they were trying to make. By that logic, you only think JoCo is harmful to the Metro area because you grew up in KC, which I'm sure isn't completely true.
Secondly, you speak as if JoCo is a separate entity form the rest of KC, when it's considered part of the KC Metro. Business brought to JoCo is still business brought to the Metro area. Unless, of course, you're only talking about the Missouri side; then this discussion makes a little more sense.
If that is the case, are you trying to say if JoCo didn't exist, KC's economy would be greater, or that businesses in the JoCo area would have set up in KC, instead? You think the Sprint campus, which is around 240 acres wide, would have been able to set up shop in a more crowded, urban environment? You don't think any of the Fortune 500 companies in JoCo would have just set up headquarters in another county close to KC? Frankly, I believe if your scenario did exist, businesses would have set up in another area, skyrocketing their economy. We would be having this same debate, with hate being thrown at Leavenworth or some other Kansas county in the Metro.
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Now, in a sad attempt to bring the topic back to KCK, I did some light reading on the area and found out KCK is still considered a suburb of KC. I feel silly not already knowing that, but I had always assumed KCK was far enough away not to be considered part of the Metro. It's clear I don't get out to KCK enough.
Last edited by Nikki0417; 03-03-2012 at 12:29 AM..
Same copy and pasted blather for 5 years now and, like a Terminator, he will not stop as long as he has an account here. I don't know what we can do outside of leaving the theater when he walks on stage. It's really sad.
You must not have been around for the first 5 years. I've been present for about 10 years now. "Terminator"...lol...I must admit that's pretty funny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo
^
My post is in reply to luz and is on topic. She is free to reply with her opinions and we will continue this debate for another 5 years with no hard feelings against one another
Mr. Gridlock, you are literally a professional when it comes to this sort of subject matter. You can't expect others without the same amount of contextual education and knowledge to really get it. I get you, but I also see a bit of anti-KS/JoCo bias, which I think may be ALL the others can see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikki0417
Now, in a sad attempt to bring the topic back to KCK, I did some light reading on the area and found out KCK is still considered a suburb of KC. I feel silly not already knowing that, but I had always assumed KCK was far enough away not to be considered part of the Metro. It's clear I don't get out to KCK enough.
You don't belong in this conversation if you thought KCK is too far away to be a part of the metro. I mean, come on. KCK is one of the original cities in the area, along with Independence and North Kansas City, that formed the KC metro before JoCo and the other modern suburbs existed. Downtown KCK is right next door to downtown KCMO, in the center of the metro. KCK is much more of an independent city than it's been given credit for, the place has enough jobs and always has to be self supporting and even draw others in. While KCK was always more blue-collar and not as urban, it was once a much denser city with a bustling downtown and it suffered drastically from white flight, racial issues, etc., just like KCMO. KCK faired worse through all that because it was smaller. Many original KCK residents moved to JoCo, as well, just like KCMO residents did to escape city problems. Look at a map or better yet go back a page or 2 and look at the fantastic perspective KCMO's photos give showing KCK's downtown and location in relation to KCMO. That said, it would not surprise me if the "light reading" you did was written by the guy named KCMO in this very thread, which is kind of funny.
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As for JoCo, had it not been JoCo, another area would have developed that played the role of JoCo. I don't see why that's so difficult to understand. The only difference is the same type of suburban area might have been on the Missouri side rather than in Kansas and might have had more interesting terrain. Most cities our size have developed corporate/big-city suburbs, which is what JoCo is, and that development simply would have occured elsewhere if JoCo were a lake or mountains, for example. Simple. JoCo does exist because of KCMO, not the other way around. Other more specific reasons JoCo exists is racism, white flight, being an open field next to a major city, and of course because Mr. JC Nichols set the trajectory for southwestward growth when he developed the Plaza and Country Club district. Had the Blue River run where state line is and the Plaza been built further east on Brush Creek, Raytown would be like NE JoCo and Lee's Summit would be like southern JoCo.
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