Requiring ID When Voting - About Time! (health insurance, credit card)

[Modron]

chele, the problem with your argument is that, logically, what it says is that anyony who doen't have ID isn't a citizen. that, simply, is not true. nothing you say will make it true. we're disenfranchising many American citizens who because they do not have ID and therefore do not get to vote from their Constitutional right to vote.

Having an ID is not the basis of citizenship, as difficult a concept as that may be.

[RememberMee]

Originally Posted by chele123

Yes, we do. And nowhere in the Constitution does it grant voting rights to non-citizens.

Neither it granted voting rights for every citizens. When appropriate amendments were made, local & state authorities found all kind of tricks in their sleeves to circumvent (very successfully) those amendments. What did Kansas worshipers of Constitution did in 1900, 1920 or 1950, huh? Women, blacks, Indians and Poor Whites were denied voting rights for 150+ years. Sure, with the rise of age of brainwashing & manipulation there is no pressing need to disenfranchise entire groups of voters for time being, but there is no slightest doubt, when elections will matter again old tricks will be promptly dusted.

Remember Florida 2000, do you? Did Kansas went ballistic over violation of Constitutional rights over there, I've thought so. I think this "Constitution" thing becomes an euphemism for something else. When somebody spouts "Constitution", 8 out of 10 that somebody wants to say "No social Programs, I've got mine" and I want my guns to scare off paupers. Why just not to say it? BTW, constitution does NOT mention guns, arms ONLY. Only in a true constitutionalists' mind a gun is synonymous to arms.

I don't think that a document voted in by slaveholders in 1787 and "updated" by robber barons in the end of 19th century can regulate every aspect of 21st century society without "judicial activists" interpreting the sacred scrolls one way or another, whatever way power, technology, economy, money & social control wind blows. I know that Jefferson wanted Constitution updated every 25 years using modern language to address modern concerns & ideas, that's what they do in all but one (the "freest") constitutional democracies.

A document (and the system) allowing judges to introduce Corporate Personhood , for example, based on 14th amendment is dangerously unclear and prone to all kind of interpretations (bread & butter of lawyer cast). It's judges (in)sanity and ruling elites interests are interpreting outdated sacred scroll whatever way they find expedient.

It would be fun to watch Kansas Constitutionalists trying to run Kansas using "strict interpretations" of US Constitution. Or Kansas Christian Fundamentalists trying to run Kansas using Biblical Laws. Real Bloody Fun. Both documents are so outdated, unclear and open for interpretations so it would take a quite a bloodletting for the strongest group of "Believers" to emerge.

[chele123]

Tell me modron, which citizens do not have ID? They have to have ID to get welfare. They have to be citizens to get welfare. So, just which ones do not have ID?

[chele123]

Remembermee I have no clue what you are talking about. I don't think you've made your point very clear. Seems like you are saying the US Constitution doesn't fit today's times and shouldn't be used anymore.

[Modron]

chele, seriously, you think every citizen has ID? and not only that you think every ID every citizen has was obtained with a birth certificate? i didn't have to have a birth certificate to get my driver's license. the DMV and consequently the polling place have no idea whether or not i'm a citizen based on me producing a birth certificate to get ID. and, because my bag was stolen and my birth certificate along with it after a trip to canada a few years ago, someone claiming to be me could be voting with ID with my name.

anyway, i show my ID when i. vote, and i always have. i think it's a reasonably good practice. but, i'm also aware that there is a sizeable number of people who are citizens, who have a constitutional right to vote, who would struggle to get an original of their birth certificate and get to where they need to go to get ID that would meet the requirements of the suggested laws. if ID is going to be required, then the system needs to see to it that every citizen eligible to vote gets their ID. if not, then the system designed by the Constitution is failing to live up to the constitutional principle of popular sovereingty. either be true to the Constitution, or don't. but don't act like there aren't citizens who will be denied their constitutional right to vote under this law, because there are.

[lifelongMOgal]

Originally Posted by TinaMcG

Well, I fear some of these inititatives aren't that well intentioned. It is possible to make registration and voting so difficult that whole demographic groups will stay away. I sense an agenda, and that agenda will result in a technically legal form of voter suppression, with the youngest and most elderly voters opting not to bother voting.

The agenda is to reduce voter fraud!

And no, I don't buy your arguement for a second. The very young can register to vote via "motor voter", it is very easy. The most elderly are the most likely to already be able to prove their identity. Those unable to leave the house often are likely choosing to vote absentee. Though, it is the more elderly who are the most reliable to turn out to polling stations as they understand the privilege and responsibility of voting.

[chele123]

Originally Posted by Modron

chele, seriously, you think every citizen has ID? and not only that you think every ID every citizen has was obtained with a birth certificate? i didn't have to have a birth certificate to get my driver's license. the DMV and consequently the polling place have no idea whether or not i'm a citizen based on me producing a birth certificate to get ID. and, because my bag was stolen and my birth certificate along with it after a trip to canada a few years ago, someone claiming to be me could be voting with ID with my name.

anyway, i show my ID when i. vote, and i always have. i think it's a reasonably good practice. but, i'm also aware that there is a sizeable number of people who are citizens, who have a constitutional right to vote, who would struggle to get an original of their birth certificate and get to where they need to go to get ID that would meet the requirements of the suggested laws. if ID is going to be required, then the system needs to see to it that every citizen eligible to vote gets their ID. if not, then the system designed by the Constitution is failing to live up to the constitutional principle of popular sovereingty. either be true to the Constitution, or don't. but don't act like there aren't citizens who will be denied their constitutional right to vote under this law, because there are.

Yes, I think every citizen has ID. If they aren't responsible enough to have ID they are most likely not interested in voting either. And no, I realize you don't have to prove citizenship to get ID, but you should have to before you can vote. Only citizens should be able to vote, period.

[TinaMcG]

Originally Posted by Modron

chele, seriously, you think every citizen has ID? and not only that you think every ID every citizen has was obtained with a birth certificate? i didn't have to have a birth certificate to get my driver's license. the DMV and consequently the polling place have no idea whether or not i'm a citizen based on me producing a birth certificate to get ID. and, because my bag was stolen and my birth certificate along with it after a trip to canada a few years ago, someone claiming to be me could be voting with ID with my name.

anyway, i show my ID when i. vote, and i always have. i think it's a reasonably good practice. but, i'm also aware that there is a sizeable number of people who are citizens, who have a constitutional right to vote, who would struggle to get an original of their birth certificate and get to where they need to go to get ID that would meet the requirements of the suggested laws. if ID is going to be required, then the system needs to see to it that every citizen eligible to vote gets their ID. if not, then the system designed by the Constitution is failing to live up to the constitutional principle of popular sovereingty. either be true to the Constitution, or don't. but don't act like there aren't citizens who will be denied their constitutional right to vote under this law, because there are.

All very true, Modron. It's unreasonable to think everyone has the kind of ID that would be required under this legislation, and heaven forbid the elderly need to produce birth certificates and can't easily find them -- or if they immigrated to America and became citizens and cannot find that proof. I have copies of my birth certificate, but those wouldn't suffice. I do have a valid and current US passport, which would be enough ID, but mahy many people don't have passports.

Face it. Those with an agenda to suppress registration or turnout know very well that the more difficult you make it for people to vote, the more who will give up and not bother. They also know lower turnout benefits their side.

[TinaMcG]

Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal

The agenda is to reduce voter fraud!

And no, I don't buy your arguement for a second. The very young can register to vote via "motor voter", it is very easy. The most elderly are the most likely to already be able to prove their identity. Those unable to leave the house often are likely choosing to vote absentee. Though, it is the more elderly who are the most reliable to turn out to polling stations as they understand the privilege and responsibility of voting.

Voter fraud is not a problem, and if the agenda was to reduce hanky panky in the voting process, they would have been up in arms about Ohio in 2004 and Florida in 2000. I repeat -- voter fraud is not a problem. Voter registration fraud isn't even a big problem. The real problem is FAR more insidious and far more frightening, and it involves attempts to sway the results of elections by manipulating voter turnout, either by discouraging people from going to the polls or by making registration more trouble than it's worth.

[stevebri]

You know, whenever this comes up it always amazes me that people think illegal immigrants want to vote. Illegal immigrants don't want to be noticed at all, why would they risk deportation by going to a polling place where there are bound to be government officials?