Is Kentucky the south or the midwest? (Lexington, Louisville: activity, suburban)

[215GUY]

Kentucky fried chicken >>Popeyes. Kentucky feel very Southern,Lousivlle and Cincy are 90 miles apart but felt so different then each other.

[missymomof3]

Originally Posted by 215GUY

Kentucky fried chicken >>Popeyes. Kentucky feel very Southern,Lousivlle and Cincy are 90 miles apart but felt so different then each other.

Thank you ! I repped ya

[missymomof3]

Here is part of the followup after the round table discussion but for some reason it won't all show up: » Is Kentucky a Southern state? A followup. The Bluegrass and Beyond

I think I have his notes somewhere on my computer, I'll see if I can find it.

[missymomof3]

Here they are: Who are we? Kentucky is sometimes mentioned as the first west, often called a border state, occasionally classified as Midwestern, and frequently termed Southern. In this talk, the State Historian of Kentucky, Dr. James Klotter and colleagues will look at what the South is and isn’t, and then examine Kentucky to see whether it really fits the region or not.


Here are some comments made during the discussion:


Walter Lippman once described journalism as the "last refuge of the vaguely talented." Journalists are rarely experts at anything.

So let me begin with the disclaimer that I have no academic credentials to determine whether or not Kentucky is or is not a Southern state. I'm not a historian, a geographer, a demographer, an anthropologist or a sociologist. So it's a probably a good thing that Jim Klotter asked me go first.

However, journalists tend to become keen observers of people and their culture. I'm a native Kentuckian and have been a journalist here for many years. I spent another two decades as a journalist in Tennessee and Georgia, and during that time traveled there and in many other Southern states covering news, interviewing people and writing stories.

Journalists also are good at asking other people what they think - both experts, and average folks.

A true expert in this matter is my friend John Egerton, the Kentucky-born author who has lived for many years in Nashville, Tennessee. John's many fine books include "The Americanization of Dixie: The Southernization of America" and "Southern Food." In 2000, John delivered a speech on this very topic at Eastern Kentucky University, and he was kind enough to send me a copy of it this week.

I also threw this question up on my blog this week. It proved to be quite a talker. When I checked earlier today, it has been read more than 1,200 times, and more than 40 people had left comments or sent me emails. Many of those responses were long, detailed and passionate.

So, based on this highly unscientific research, let's consider the evidence:

In the early days of pioneer settlement, Kentucky was considered the West. In the early 1800s, a leading newspaper in Lexington was called the Western Monitor. In the first half of the 19th Century, much of Kentucky's economy resembled that of other Southern states. It had lucrative agricultural industries whose success depended on the evil institution of human slavery. In fact, hundreds of slaves were bought and sold on Cheapside, a couple of blocks from where we're sitting.

During the Civil War, Kentucky was a bitterly divided border state – claimed by both sides, occupied by both sides and filled with people loyal to both sides. Central Kentucky in particular had many Southern sympathizers. In the election of 1860, Kentuckian Abraham Lincoln got fewer votes in Lexington than he had inlaws living here. Some of the top Confederates were from Kentucky, including Jefferson Davis and John C. Breckinridge, who also lived a few blocks from here.

Kentucky never officially seceded from the union, although a Confederate government was organized. Kentucky escaped Reconstruction. Yet, after the Civil War was over, many wealthy Kentuckians embraced the South's lost cause with gusto. It probably had something to do with racism – and a lot more to do with their desire to market expensive horses and bourbon whiskey to outsiders with money. When it comes to Southern imagery, the Kentucky Colonel in a white linen suit, sipping mint juleps on the porch of his white-columned mansion, is hard to top.

The heart of this question, though, isn't so much about Kentucky's history as its culture. And this is where the argument gets heated. Is Kentucky Southern or Midwestern?

Officially, the Mason-Dixon line went along the Ohio River, putting Kentucky in the South. But are there other lines of demarcation we should consider? Does Kentucky have a cultural equivalent of Georgia's gnat line? If you haven't heard of the gnat line, it runs east-to-west somewhere vaguely south of Macon. Below the gnat line, the tiny insects will pester you all summer. Above the gnat line, though, you almost never see gnats.

A few of the people who commented on my blog this week had their own imaginary lines in mind. Or they wanted to look at Kentucky as a burgoo of influences. One of my favorite comments came from David Greer of the Kentucky Press Association, who wrote, "We have elements of Southern culture, Midwestern manufacturing and weather from all over creation."

Several readers argued that parts of Louisville and Northern Kentucky were more Midwestern than Southern, perhaps owing to Ohio River commerce or the wave of European immigration to those cities in the late 1800s.

But others fought back. Churchill Downs, Midwestern? Please. And what are the words on that big water tower along I-75 in Northern Kentucky? Florence Y'all. It does not say Florence You Guys.

The overwhelming concensus of my blog's readers was that Kentucky is a Southern state and should be proud of it. Readers cited several pieces of evidence:

Kentucky is latitudinally equivalent to Virginia, although we don't still fight the Civil War on a daily basis, as some Virgnians do.
The University of Kentucky's sports teams play in the Southeastern Conference.
Nothing is more Southern than fried chicken. And no fried chicken is more authentic than Kentucky Fried Chicken. If you don't believe that, just ask anyone in China.
Readers' opinions are backed up in a more scientific poll, which was conducted in 1999 by University of North Carolina sociologist John Shelton Reed. In that poll, 79 percent of Kentuckians thought the community in which they lived was in the South, and 68 percent of Kentuckians considered themselves Southerners.

To me, most of Kentucky seems decidedly Southern, especially the Jackson Purchase. In fact, far western Kentucky seems more like west Tennessee than it does the rest of Kentucky. And west Tennessee seems more like northern Mississippi than it does the rest of Tennessee. My mother is from the Jackson Purchase, and anyone who hears her voice will realize quickly that she is from the South.

John Egerton agrees that Kentucky is certainly a Southern state. Its music is Southern. Its religion is Southern. And, most of all, its food is Southern. And when it comes to Southern food, John is an expert.

In his speech at EKU, John suggested another sort of gnat line for determining this question. He quoted Robert "Old Bob" Taylor, the 19th Century Tennessee politician, as saying that the line between North and South was all about the temperature of fresh bread. Do people eat cold bread, or hot bread? Northerners eat bread cold. Southerners like fresh bread hot.

Kentucky, as we all know, is a land of hot biscuits, cornbread and spoon bread. And at any good Kentucky table, you likely will eat that hot bread with country ham, the best of which is made in Kentucky. To most people from elsewhere - and certainly to Yankees — country ham is too salty for human consumption. To most Southerners, it is simply divine.

Some of the South's best hickory-smoked barbecue can be found in Western Kentucky. My favorite barbecue is made in the Graves County community of Fancy Farm on the first Saturday of each August. Of course, much of the meat for that barbecue is mutton freshly imported from the Midwest, but let's not go there.

Sweet tea may not be the only choice in Kentucky, as it is in much of the Deep South, but it is usually an option. And Kentuckians are a people who believe that any vegetable worth cooking is worth over-cooking.

Of course, the quintessential drink of the Old South would be nothing more than mint-flavored sugar water were it not for bourbon whiskey, virtually all of which is made in Kentucky. (But I will point out that any sensible Kentuckian considers a mint julep a terrible waste of good bourbon.)

So, I conclude emphatically that Kentucky is a Southern state. But it is important to remember that the South is no more homogenous than the people who live here. There is the Deep South, the Appalachian highlands, the low country of South Carolina, the Virginia Piedmont, the bayous of south Louisiana, the scrub forests of north Louisiana and South Florida, which hardly even seems American. They are all Southern. And they are all very different, as are the people who live there.

Yes, clues to Southernness can be found in history and diet. There is further evidence in our music and our religion, and how we relate to family. Regional identity is about the way we talk, and about Southern manners and hospitality.

But more than anything, it has to do with how we see ourselves.

Kentucky is Southern because most people here think they are Southern. Sure, some Northern Kentuckians will identify more with Cincinnati. And some people in Louisville embrace the term Kentuckiana. I have always recoiled at the very sound of Kentuckiana, believing as I do, that God put the Ohio River there for a good reason. <<<<<<I LOVE that part!

I would close by saying that while Kentucky is indeed Southern, it is a state that is hard to categorize or even fully describe, especially for those who love Kentucky. Perhaps the closest description can be found in the famous quote attributed to Daniel Boone, which I'm sure he never really said: "Heaven must be a Kentucky kind of place."

[bobbyconn]

UofK is in the Southeastern conference. Enough said. btw, Go Cards!

[mdawg]

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

I think NOT! The "South" is NOTHING like Kentucky (and I mean that in both a good and bad way). Many Kentuckians would have a hard time adjusting to the "real South". Folks from the "real South" will have a hard time adjusting to Kentucky.

The culture (and demographic) differences are quite large. I am a southerner, and my state voted for Obama and voted in a female Governor on the same night. This would NEVER happen in Kentucky. NEVER!!! And yes, I lived in Kentucky on and off for nearly 4 years (Eastern Kentucky). I LOVED Louisville and the burbs of Cincy. Lexington was "OK". However, the rest of the state was...... Let's just say I would NOT call Kentucky a southern state and leave it at that. Kentucky is certainly in its own category (not truly midwestern, and certainly NOT southern).

Besides, I had to specifically ask for "sweet tea" at some fast food places in Eastern Kentucky. In the "real South" you DO NOT have to ask for "sweet" tea. It is understood that if you want tea, you want it sweet. Gotta LOVE the South!!!

I've been to North Carolina and Charlotte numerous times and I've never felt like it was anymore "southern" than Kentucky, and geographically it isn't much farther south. So let me get this straight, you think because your state voted for Obama makes it more southern? I don't see the logic because you are only 1 of 5 census defined southern states that voted for him. Seems a little "un-southern" if you ask me. I don't think you actually know what you are talking about in regards to Kentucky, and maybe even southern culture. Culturally speaking, Kentucky has way more in common with Tennessee, Virginia, and North Carolina than it does with Ohio, Indiana, or Illinois. I would even consider the extreme southern parts of these states (except Cincy) to be southern in culture.

[urbancharlotte]

Originally Posted by mdawg

Culturally speaking, Kentucky has way more in common with Tennessee, Virginia, and North Carolina than it does with Ohio, Indiana, or Illinois.

Well, let's talk about "culture" shall we.

% of black population in Kentucky
Kentucky 7.7%
Kentucky QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau

% of black populations in 3 southern states
Tennessee 16.8%
Tennessee QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau
Virginia 19.9%
Virginia QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau
North Carolina 21.6%
North Carolina QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau


% of black populations in 3 midwestern states
Ohio 12%
Ohio QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau
Indiana 9.1%
Indiana QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau
Illinois 14.9%
Illinois QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau

Which states (culturally speaking of course) would you group Kentucky with?

[missymomof3]

Originally Posted by mdawg

I've been to North Carolina and Charlotte numerous times and I've never felt like it was anymore "southern" than Kentucky, and geographically it isn't much farther south. So let me get this straight, you think because your state voted for Obama makes it more southern? I don't see the logic because you are only 1 of 5 census defined southern states that voted for him. Seems a little "un-southern" if you ask me. I don't think you actually know what you are talking about in regards to Kentucky, and maybe even southern culture. Culturally speaking, Kentucky has way more in common with Tennessee, Virginia, and North Carolina than it does with Ohio, Indiana, or Illinois. I would even consider the extreme southern parts of these states (except Cincy) to be southern in culture.

Thank you mdawg!

[missymomof3]

I don't think people realize that as far as Louisville is concerned, the nearest major city in Indiana is two hours away so Southern Indiana is influenced by US, not the other way around.

[215GUY]

Originally Posted by missymomof3

I don't think people realize that as far as Louisville is concerned, the nearest major city in Indiana is two hours away so Southern Indiana is influenced by US, not the other way around.

Yeah that is true Cincy influence Northern Kentucky, and Lousiville influence Southern Indiana,i never thought of that.