Is Kentucky the south or the midwest? (Louisville: how much, universities)

[nokygirl]

Originally Posted by JimmyJohnWilson

that means they have been in the US for so many generations that they can no longer trace their ancestry to a specific european country

Okay, I understand. I would have expected those people to have been located more on the eastern/southern coasts of the US instead of inland.

[Ark90]

Originally Posted by mwruckman

There is a difference between the South of the Mississippi delta (Gulf region) and the SE Atlantic coastal areas of states like VA, NC,SC, GA and the regions of the Southern interior. One has the effects of the slave/plantation society the other comes from Appalachia. Appalachian language and culture differ from coastal southern language and cuture. The difference is seen in the difference between drinks based on rum and those based on corn or potato mash derived spirits (Jim Beam or something a little less legal). Kentucky is Appalachian rather than deep southern. Appalachian culture spread out from the the Appalachian mountains to places like Arkansas, Missouri and into the south plains and into Texas and then on to California. It also spread to places like Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland and Pittsburgh in that milions of workers come from this region to work with the millions who came from Eastern Europe, the Balkans and Italy. It is the country in Country and Western music.

I think you are confusing the "Appalachian" culture in northern Arkansas and southern Missouri with the Ozark Mountain culture that exists there, which is a distinct culture in and of itself, although there are some Appalachian influences. Also, Texas and Arkansas are Southern states with their own separate cultures and have little influence from the Appalachian Mountains...Especially the Delta region of Arkansas (Which is part of the Deep South) and East Texas.

[urbancharlotte]

Jimmy, you make great points and all your efforts are GREATLY appreciated. However, white is white and black is black. It doesn't matter where they originally came from. Historically, KY was VERY southern, but are you willing to say KY is more like GA, VA, Miss, Tenn, NC, SC, Ala than it is like Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois? We are talking about KY 2009. Not pre-civil rights movement KY.

This question I just asked you is why this debate is such a hot topic on the forums. KY is "the state in question" when it comes to being southern (and for good reasons). To deny this, is to deny reality.

For the record, I am WELL aware of KY's history and "southern" actions in past decades. However, the south has changed much in past 30 years. KY is still very much so "old south" minus the black population and "new south" growth. Clearly, this makes KY resemble its "midwestern neighbors" more than it does its southeastern "distant cousins".

The bottom line is that folks from places like NY, Cali, Texas, Washington State, etc are changing the south into a very different place than KY. NC is not the only southern state that is seeing this change. The few deep south states that are not seeing this HUGE transplant influx have very large black populations (Ala, Miss etc). As a result, KY is neither a "new south" state, nor is it a "deep south" state. It is a state (geographically in the south) that can not be grouped with ANY other southern states. In addition to this, much of Kentucky's economic activity comes from two major metros on the Ohio River (imagine that). These are the facts. We can not deny these facts in this debate.

So my question to you (jimmy) is how is KY "southern" by today's standards? I am not interested in a history lesson simply because history would reveal MANY southern states (yes, the south was VERY vast at one point; one of reasons for the Civil War was to "contain" the south and slavery). I want to know how KY is more like southern states than it is like Ohio and Indiana.

[JimmyJohnWilson]

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

Jimmy, you make great points and all your efforts are GREATLY appreciated. However, white is white and black is black. It doesn't matter where they originally came from.

this is where i disagree. lets say kentucky had a huge influence of jamaican and african immigrants? would that make it more southern in character? no.

i think it does matter where the whites came from because they'v developed different customs, while their skin tone may be the same their culture is not. white people in kentucky eat kale greens, how many whites in iwoa city are doing that? the south has a very old heritage, as immigration to it was extremely limited until very recently

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

Historically, KY was VERY southern, but are you willing to say KY is more like GA, VA, Miss, Tenn, NC, SC, Ala than it is like Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois? We are talking about KY 2009. Not pre-civil rights movement KY.

This question I just asked you is why this debate is such a hot topic on the forums. KY is "the state in question" when it comes to being southern (and for good reasons). To deny this, is to deny reality.

i think kentucky is still very southern, probably because I dont live in louisville or NoKY. what you have to realize is those areas are not kentucky culture, and youll notice that they arent situated in the middle of the state, but on the edge, right where i would say the south ends.

historically KY is southern, and i think outside of areas where midwesterners have moved to and settled it still is.

kentucky and tennessee or more like each other than any other state. that is widely accepted as fact. TN residents know, and so do KY residents. i was wlaking down the street in california once with a kentucky shirt on and a man stoopped me and said "you from kentucky? I'm from tennessee!".

but it really depends on what region you are in. cincy suburbs are more like cincinatti than the rest of the state, but then again people in northern ohio consider southern ohio to be different from them and more like the south. same for indiana.

the jackson purchas area (far western ky) shares culture with western TN, northwest arkansas, and southeast mo. i mean have you ever had western KY style BBQ? its good

basically there are two regions in the south, the inland south (or upper south) and the coastal south (or lower south). you know a lot of folks down in louisiana dont think NC is "really southern". it depends on what part of NC you are in as well.

but YES, i would say kentucky is more like georgia than it is like ohio, as long as we are not talking about extreme southern ohio and extreme northern ky. and there is absolutly no dount in my ming that KY and TN are more like each other than any other state. and i would say KY and NC are more like each other than you think. NC is upper south in a lot of ways as well.

my uncle and cousin both went to GA tech, they know there are differences. but central ky and central ohio are nothing alike. central ky and georgia are alike, not exactly the same but alike.

[urbancharlotte]

Well, I respect your opinion. However, my experiences have taught me that the "south" and its much larger black population has made for a VERY different "climate" than present day KY. Before I ever moved to KY, I would have thought NC and KY were very alike. However, they are not. I am a truck driver, and I have seen the entire Nation more than twice. I was a truck driver when I lived in KY too (even held a KY cdl for awhile).

I used to deliver Walmart grocery out of Washigton Ohio. After that, I began hauling fuel out of the Marathon refinery in Catlettsburg KY. Fuel hauling is when I became VERY familiar with Eastern KY. The grocery job is how a became so familar with the rest of KY (western, central, and Northern KY). Trust me, I am not some dude that never got out of the house decided "I'll call KY midwestern today on city-data" lol. Me calling KY more midwestern than southern has to do with my own (in person) observations of the state in question. Both as a visitor, and resident of KY. It is not like the South that I know and love. Not at all.n It is more like the Midwest (southern Ohio and Indiana to be exact). If Louisville and Cincy were on the Tennessee state line, things would be so different IMO. However, those large cities tend to tilt the arrow towards Midwestern for the entire state. Much of KY's population and economic activity revolves around those two cities.

I will say this however. There are vast areas of KY south of I-64 that are VERY southern. Unfortunately, this area probably has less than half of KY's population (eventhough is has more than half of KY's land area). It is the people that gives a place its identity, not the real estate. Most of KY's population is more midwestern than it is southern. This much isn't even debatable.

[SVTLightning]

I think all you have to do is listen to my wife talk and realize that parts of Ky are just as southern as any state in the union!!! lol

My wife and I both grew up in different parts of Kentucky, and we live in North Carolina now and I do think they are very similar to each other. Yes there are parts of both states that are more like other places, but in general they are very close. We live in a small town in NC that makes my wife feel at home.

[censusdata]

I think Urban Charlotte makes a good point that KY isn't Southern from a Black perspective, while most Southern Whites probably do.

Like the South nearly all White Kentuckian's family trees go back to England, Scotland, or Wales. But like the Midwest it has a small Black population - 9%, the next lowest Southern state is TN at 17%. Of the 9% nearly all of it is in Louisville or Lexington, only SW Kentucky and the inner Bluegrass region has a rural Black population of any size. But even the Appalachian counties in TN and NC still have similar percent Black populations as SW and Central KY does.

[Louisvilleslugger]

[quote=urbancharlotte;11285292]

Both as a visitor, and resident of KY. It is not like the South that I know and love. Not at all

Being a former resident of Georgia and spending a small stint in Ohio I have to strongly disagree.

n It is more like the Midwest (southern Ohio and Indiana to be exact).

In what aspects? It seems with this comparison you have it a tad bit backwads. The Southern regions of Indiana, Illiniois, and even rural Southern Ohio have always been regions heavily influenced by the South. The early inhabitants of those regions were populated by early Kentuckians, Virginians, and Tenneseans (I think that how you say it)

If you refer to my earlier post in this thread I've posted numerous linguistic, religious and cultural maps showing those regions similarity to the rest of the South (particularly the Mid South)!


[quote]If Louisville and Cincy were on the Tennessee state line, things would be so different IMO. However, those large cities tend to tilt the arrow towards Midwestern for the entire state. [/QUOTE

That's a matter of opinion. Speaking of opinions there were 3 polls on this forum and 2 on skyscraperpage in which the majority (vast majority on SSP) of posters from both the South and Midwest feel that Louisville is more Southern than Midwestern.

Race (and the culture that comes with race) is the BIGGEST difference between the South and the "wannabe" South.

Race relations and the South are somewhat intertwined, and a simple look at Kentucky's racial history CLEARLY links Kentucky to the South (in a negative way). Did you know that Blacks once made up a quarter of Kentucky's population (unlike any non Southern state) and that Kentucky was ranked 10 in the nation for lynchings. Surpassing "South" states suchas North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia? Despite having a considerably smaller population of blacks.

Lynching Statistics

This important element is missing in the Midwestern states (with the exception of their larger cities).

You're right not only is what's mentioned above missing in the midwest (but present in Kentucky), but the Midwest also lacks a signifigant rural black population. Which is present in kentucky and other Upland Southern states. Most similar perhaps to Tennessee (minus the Memphis area) and a bit of a contrast from the rural areas of the Midwest.

The same can be said for Kentucky (with the exception of KY's larger cities). Clearly, KY has a strong Midwestern influence.

Something else worth noting is that like the rest of the South Kentucky had a net LOSS of blacks during both great migrations. The "real Midwest" was on the receiving end of this migration. Which is what the heavy Black presence in their urban areas is credited to.

[JimmyJohnWilson]

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

Well, I respect your opinion. However, my experiences have taught me that the "south" and its much larger black population has made for a VERY different "climate" than present day KY. Before I ever moved to KY, I would have thought NC and KY were very alike. However, they are not. I am a truck driver, and I have seen the entire Nation more than twice. I was a truck driver when I lived in KY too (even held a KY cdl for awhile).

well than youll have to consider tennessee (excet southwest TN) and northern alabama not southern as well because their black populations are almost identical to kentucky's.

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

I used to deliver Walmart grocery out of Washigton Ohio. After that, I began hauling fuel out of the Marathon refinery in Catlettsburg KY. Fuel hauling is when I became VERY familiar with Eastern KY. The grocery job is how a became so familar with the rest of KY (western, central, and Northern KY). Trust me, I am not some dude that never got out of the house decided "I'll call KY midwestern today on city-data" lol.

Catlettsburg KY is all the way up on the ohio, i really hope that you arent basing this off of that town, which is part of the huntington area. i really doubt if just drving though is enough to get to know central and western KY. whenever i stop at a gas station on the bluegrass parkway there is always confederate paraphanalia, and "southern by the grace of god" stuff in the shop. i mean honestly when ive been in rural central and western ky, there are "jesus is coming back" signs, and confederate flags. i'm not trying to say that this is good, but you do not see this in the midwest. you just dont.

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

Me calling KY more midwestern than southern has to do with my own (in person) observations of the state in question. Both as a visitor, and resident of KY. It is not like the South that I know and love. Not at all.n It is more like the Midwest (southern Ohio and Indiana to be exact).

you know, i bet the huntington area is like southern ohio, given that they are right next to each other. but in ohio, southern ohio is considered to be very different in character than central and norther ohio. and the rest of the state of ky is not like that. you have to realize, and this is very important, southern ohio is not the beacon of midwestern culture, at all. if the entire midwest was like southern ohio it would be a lot more like the south.

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

If Louisville and Cincy were on the Tennessee state line, things would be so different IMO. However, those large cities tend to tilt the arrow towards Midwestern for the entire state. Much of KY's population and economic activity revolves around those two cities.

cincinatti isnt in kentucky. its in ohio. and bowling green and hopkinsville are on the tennessee state line.

but how do the large cities "tilt the arrow" for the whole state? first of all, only one of them is in the state. but they dont tilt anything. that doesnt even make sense. do you know why there are big cities on the ohio river? because it hooks up with the mississippi, and makes for a great place to trade. thats how those cities got started. if the kentucky/tennessee border was a major river, there'd be more cities along it.

kentucky's economy is very agricultural. i mean kentucky is famous for tobacco, horses and bourbon. those are the big industries that come to mind. but the states economic activity doesnt revolve around those two cities. the areas right at those cities do, but the rest of the state does not. most of western ky is tied more to nashville, if any city.

kentucky's tobacco production is something that makes it very similar to north carolina actually, i mean come on, college basketball and tobacco production, NC and KY have more in common than you think

eastern kentucky's economy is based upon coal mining. eastern kentucky is not midwestern at all. i really dont even see how you could argue that. where exactly in iowa are there southern twang speaking coal miners?

i mean eastern ky is just typical poverty stricken southern appalachia, nothing in common with the midwest at all. other than there being white people there, which is dumb because not all white people have the same culture.

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

I will say this however. There are vast areas of KY south of I-64 that are VERY southern. Unfortunately, this area probably has less than half of KY's population (eventhough is has more than half of KY's land area). It is the people that gives a place its identity, not the real estate. Most of KY's population is more midwestern than it is southern. This much isn't even debatable.

well a lot of it north of 64 is southern in culture as well, at least all that is below the northern kentucky area, and maybe right on the ohio(although even those areas are not really midwestern, or not compared to a real midwestern area like iowa)

and boone county, kenton county, campbell county, and jefferson county (the only counties where i would say midwestern culture is prominant) make up about 25 percent of the population. so most of the population is not midwestern, so what you said is debatable.

and like i said, they arent kentucky, they are midwesterners who moved here. the same is in north carolina's big cities, the same is in atlanta.

and to judge the whole state that way is dumb. just because cincy suburbs are midwestern doesnt say anything for the state as a whole. im sure i could find areas of charlotte so populated with out of staters that they arent southern in character either.

[missymomof3]

Midwestern culture is prominent in the areas East of 65 in Jefferson county and inside the Watterson expressway. Everything else is Southern.