Is Kentucky the south or the midwest? (Louisville, Bowling Green: fence, agricultural)

[Louisvilleslugger]

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte;11301410

[QUOTE

you will see that the ONLY map where KY resembles the South is the 1850 map lol.

Which deals directly with the black population in the country. Now correct if I'm wrong but weren't you making an argument that due to your "inference" that Kentucky has always lacked the black that characterized the "real South" that it wasn't "really Southern"? Now that that inference on your behalf was put to rest by the 1850 map posted above you now undermine your very argument

The other maps show KY having more in common with its midwestern neighbors than its southern neighbors.

That's just a taste

ou are trying too hard to prove something that just isn't there.

You my friend are fighting an uphill battle (like 90 degrees)

already posted the percent of blacks for all of these states.

Yes of the current population. Kentucky's black population relation with the rest of the South has already been thouroughly addressed. Once again Kentucky like almost every (maryland and Missouri) slave state lost blacks during EVERY great migration to the North. If that doesn't constitute a strong cultural bond between states in a region then I don't know what in the Hell does. Now true enough Kentucky has never been as black as S. Carolina, Mississippi, Louisiana, ECT... But as demonstrated on the previous page slavery has left an imprint in it's black population distribution distinguishing it from it's neighboring Northern states and making it most akin to Upland Tennessee (which is all of Tenessee minus the memphis area). While Kentucky's percentage is closer to Indiana than Tennessee, Kentucky's black population is found in more than just Louisville and Lexington. It is also found in clusters of RURAL areas in all of the state minus Eastern Kentucky (Appalachia). Which again is most similar to Upland Tennessee.

Something worth mentioning is that if you look at cultural map posted above the purchase region of Kentucky on the Mississippi (extreme Southwestern region) is grouped in the Deep South. That region also contains the blackest county in the state which is fulton county which is one quarter black and is the most Northern tip of the black belt region.

The bottom line is KY just isn't black enough nor is it "new south" enough to be considered "a member". I do enjoy how you are trying so hard though. Really I do.

LOL this New South argument is about as ridiculous as short sleeved thermals. You attempt to mask the fact that the true Southern culture that was once dominant in the metro areas of Virginia and North Carolina have become deluded/obliverated by wave upon wave of Northern migrants and lol attempt to say that this dilluted culture is what the "real South" is now. I just about wet my pants when I read this. So because your state's culture which has been argued to be Mid Atlantic by many (especially after the last presidential election) has become dilluted in it's metro areas, the culture in these metro areas are suspose to be representative for the other regions in the other 10 states in the South? Quite ridiculous to say the least. How this dilluted sub culture jumps ranks over traditional Southern culture is beyond me. Lol according to you the Charlotte officer worker who just transfered from New Jersey is more Southern than the 3rd generation tobacco farmer in Kentucky...WOW

I think you're the one who has to come to grips with the fact that North Carolina and Virginia are moving further and further away from the "real South", rather than it's culture replacing authentic Southern culture! BTW how can it be "real Southern culture" when the cultural variation is coming from a region other than the South. You know it would make much more since to say that Southern culture in fast growing areas of the South is dissappearing, rather than state that that very influx of non Southerners is "Southern". So according to you since Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee and Texas are growing faster than Kentucky they are more Southern; Which means that since Kentucky is Old South (according to you) and is growing faster than Alabama and Mississipi then it is more Southern then those states

And trust me on this one. Any state in the South with professional sports (and not just college sports) is considered "new south". Tennessee has three pro-teams. NC has three pro-teams. Georgia has 4 pro-teams. Kentucky......well, you get the point.

So now sports teams constitute true Southern culture; Bye bye Alabama, Mississipi, South carolina, Arkansas, and Virginia

Incorrect. I can move to Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina etc and see a VERY different culture than Kentucky's. It is called "black culture".

Yeah in the urban areas! As a black man who has lived in Georgia the black culture revolves around major urban areas. In Georgia's case Atlanta. Yes blacks from Macon and Rome will come to Atlanta on the weekends to let loose.

You know, hip hop clubs, BBQ joints and liquor houses, cruizing "da strip" while riding on 20s, etc etc. This is the south.

Yeah dude you've never heard of the West End during the Kentucky Derby (or even a warm sunday afternoon) Cruisin on Broadway/Shawnee Park/Chickasaw Park? You've never heard of Nappy Roots rural black Kentucky rappers? You've never heard of the Hoptown (Hopkinsville), Paducah, Bowling green (WKU parties attracting people from Nashville and Louisville), Frankfort (K-state; which is a black school, whose homecoming just passed in which Yo Gotti, Webbie, and Boosie and a host of other Southern black artist performed), even radcliff has descent little scene. Now while those smaller towns might not be on BET's number one shout list they do offer a descent young black sub culture.

This is the "old south". This is not KY. It just isn't.

Yeah this multi platinum Western Kentucky rap group wouldn't cut it

You can find what I have described in some parts of KY, but let's face it. THIS IS NOT KENTUCKY'S THANG.

Gee well here are some pics from Derby













OMG are those Black Kentuckians, why aren't they on horses!!!!!!!

[mdawg]

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

Incorrect. I can move to Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina etc and see a VERY different culture than Kentucky's. It is called "black culture". You know, hip hop clubs, BBQ joints and liquor houses, cruizing "da strip" while riding on 20s, etc etc. This is the south. This is the "old south". This is not KY. It just isn't. You can find what I have described in some parts of KY, but let's face it. THIS IS NOT KENTUCKY'S THANG.

You are saying a MINORITY makes up southern culture as a whole. You are so ignorant it amazes me. Blacks contributed to southern culture, and it can be found in Kentucky, mostly in urban areas. How is riding on 20s the old south? Did they have 20s back in the day? HA. This isn't any southern states THANG. It is an urban THANG that can be found in any state, north or south.

[missymomof3]

I think I am gonna go around and take pictures of all the cars with "20s" I see around town that we don't have in Kentucky lol As a matter of fact, I can take pictures of cars IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD *gasp! Cruising has been popular for years and years and years. Nice try Charlotte.

[JimmyJohnWilson]

Originally Posted by mdawg

How is riding on 20s the old south? Did they have 20s back in the day? HA. This isn't any southern states THANG. It is an urban THANG that can be found in any state, north or south.

pretty much my point exactly. what he has described as "southern culture" sounds exactly like what i used to see all the time in oakland california. so lets revise that, it can found found north, south, east, and west.

[urbancharlotte]

^^^Like I said folks, some parts of Kentucky (and every state) has "black culture" to some degree. However, are you willing to say the average town in KY is anything like the average town in NC, Mississippi, Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, SC LOL.

Besides, even Seattle (one of the "whitest" cities in the country) had hip hop artists that made it big. Does this mean that Seattle's "black culture" is stronger than the South's? HECK NOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Nice try y'all, but KY does not have the amount of "black culture" that you would find in the South. Post all of the pics and videos you guys want to (I really enjoyed the pics), it doesn't change the fact that "black culture" is MUCH stronger in the south. Heck, even some midwestern states have stronger black culture than Kentucky (if we are going to be honest about this topic).

Anyways, the following is a quote from the "Best Cities for African Americans" listing.

quote: "Ironically, the D.C. metro area has the best-educated black population of the cities, boasting the highest percentage of high school and college graduates. The No. 2 pick, Atlanta, GA, continues to impress. The city is home to 64,000 black-owned businesses and continues to offer extensive entrepreneurial opportunities. No. 3, Raleigh-Durham, NC, boasted a 3.4% rise in job growth, the highest employment statistic among the cities ranked. Rounding out the 10 best cities for African Americans list is: No. 4, Houston, TX; No. 5, Nashville, TN; No. 6, Dallas, TX; No. 7, Charlotte, NC; No. 8, Indianapolis, IN; No. 9, Columbus, OH; and No. 10, Jacksonville, FL."

The Ten Best Cities for African Americans=

In previous years, cities like Birmingham and Memphis made this list as well. Like I said, much of the south (and parts of the midwest) has a stronger black culture (and a friendlier "black social climate") than Kentucky. Kentucky (when it comes to blacks; or better yet lack thereof) is more midwestern than it is southern. This much is a fact that isn't even debatable.

Originally Posted by censusdata

I don't understand why some Kentuckians feel such a need to be either 100% Southern or 100% Midwestern. I never hear Texans or Oklahomans complain that their state's are too Old West too be 100% Southern. I wish people got as worked up over are awful health rankings - highest cancer rate, obesity rate, 5th lowest life expectancy, etc.

Well said!!! I LOVED some of the "non-southern" aspects of living in Kentucky. One of those aspects was the MUCH larger percentage of African Americans that dated outside of their race (me being one of those African Americans). Here in the south (due to the larger black population) blacks tend to date outside of their race less than blacks in Kentucky (again, this is just my observation and I don't have ANY data to prove this).

In Louisville, my wife and I felt more comfortable walking around the 4th Street Live area than we do in ANY part of Charlotte. It is not that Charlotte isn't an open minded city (it is). Charlotte just has a stronger "stay black" culture than what you would find in Louisville. The south as a whole is more "stay black; stay with your own" than blacks in cities like Louisville and Cincy. This is a midwestern trait that the south is only just starting to embrace.

[mdawg]

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

^^^Like I said folks, some parts of Kentucky (and every state) has "black culture" to some degree. However, are you willing to say the average town in KY is anything like the average town in NC, Mississippi, Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, SC LOL.

Besides, even Seattle (one of the "whitest" cities in the country) had hip hop artists that made it big. Does this mean that Seattle's "black culture" is stronger than the South's? HECK NOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Nice try y'all, but KY does not have the amount of "black culture" that you would find in the South. Post all of the pics and videos you guys want to (I really enjoyed the pics), it doesn't change the fact that "black culture" is MUCH stronger in the south. Heck, even some midwestern states have stronger black culture than Kentucky (if we are going to be honest about this topic).

Anyways, the following is a quote from the "Best Cities for African Americans" listing.

quote: "Ironically, the D.C. metro area has the best-educated black population of the cities, boasting the highest percentage of high school and college graduates. The No. 2 pick, Atlanta, GA, continues to impress. The city is home to 64,000 black-owned businesses and continues to offer extensive entrepreneurial opportunities. No. 3, Raleigh-Durham, NC, boasted a 3.4% rise in job growth, the highest employment statistic among the cities ranked. Rounding out the 10 best cities for African Americans list is: No. 4, Houston, TX; No. 5, Nashville, TN; No. 6, Dallas, TX; No. 7, Charlotte, NC; No. 8, Indianapolis, IN; No. 9, Columbus, OH; and No. 10, Jacksonville, FL."

The Ten Best Cities for African Americans=

In previous years, cities like Birmingham and Memphis made this list as well. Like I said, much of the south (and parts of the midwest) has a stronger black culture (and a friendlier "black social climate") than Kentucky. Kentucky (when it comes to blacks; or better yet lack thereof) is more midwestern than it is southern. This much is a fact that isn't even debatable.
Well said!!! I LOVED some of the "non-southern" aspects of living in Kentucky. One of those aspects was the MUCH larger percentage of African Americans that dated outside of their race (me being one of those African Americans). Here in the south (due to the larger black population) blacks tend to date outside of their race less than blacks in Kentucky (again, this is just my observation and I don't have ANY data to prove this).

In Louisville, my wife and I felt more comfortable walking around the 4th Street Live area than we do in ANY part of Charlotte. It is not that Charlotte isn't an open minded city (it is). Charlotte just has a stronger "stay black" culture than what you would find in Louisville. The south as a whole is more "stay black; stay with your own" than blacks in cities like Louisville and Cincy. This is a midwestern trait that the south is only just starting to embrace.

The whole point here is you are getting black culture confused with southern culture. Both have things in common with each other, but they are not the same. Period. You are not going to persuade anyone on this forum that Kentucky is not southern. You are fighting an uphill battle my friend. I think we all agree it doesn't share the same black culture as some other southern states, but that is it.

[urbancharlotte]

Originally Posted by mdawg

The whole point here is you are getting black culture confused with southern culture. Both have things in common with each other, but they are not the same. Period. You are not going to persuade anyone on this forum that Kentucky is not southern. You are fighting an uphill battle my friend. I think we all agree it doesn't share the same black culture as some other southern states, but that is it.

The only other "southern state" that is culturally comparable to Kentucky is West Virginia (and even this much is a stretch). Really Kentucky, Southern Ohio, and Southern Indiana has the most in common with each other. This is neither a good thing nor a bad thing. It is a FACT thing. Southern KY has a lot in common with Tennessee. However, northern KY is BY FAR more populated than Southern KY. This is why I said KY leans more midwestern. This has to do with where KY's most populated concentration of people live. They reside next to a midwestern river. From what I can tell, you reside next to this midwestern river too LOL! I live near the NC/SC state line. I will NEVER have to defend the fact that I am in a "southern" locale.

FYI, black culture (for the most part) is southern culture my friend. As you stated "Both have things in common with each other". No, I am not saying that black culture is the same as southern culture. What I am saying is that all southern states have a strong black culture. Kentucky does not.

In addition to not having a strong black culture, geography is also one of KY's "enemies" in this debate. Outside of Kentucky Kindom, Kings Island is the closest major theme park to KY. Indianapolis is the closest NBA team for most Kentuckians. The Reds are BY FAR the closest MLB team for most folks in KY. Heck, even Kentucky's busiest Airport has "Cincinnati's" name on it!!! Like I said, Kentucky is geared around the Midwest. I lived in the KY/Ohio areas on and off for nearly 4 years. I hauled freight up there y'all. Trust me, most of my loads took me to Chicago more times than they took me to Nashville. Columbus, Louisville, Cincy, Indy, Cleveland, etc were all cities I made pick ups and deliveries in the most. I honestly can't think of one load I ever had that sent me "down south". Most distribution centers are regional. When it comes to hauling freight (regionally speaking) much of KY is considered to be midwestern.

[Louisvilleslugger]

[quote=urbancharlotte;11314457]

However, are you willing to say the average town in KY is anything like the average town in NC, Mississippi, Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, SC LOL.

IN TERMS OF BLACK CULTURE; NOT OVERALL SOUTHERN CULTURE Tennessee minus the Memphis area I would argue YES! Again a simple glance at this black population density map shows numerous rural clusters in Kentucky. SOME CLUSTERS EVEN LARGER THAN LOUISVILLE!!!!

Almost all of Kentucky and most of Tennessee is UPLAND SOUTHERN in culture not Lower Southern. While the Lower South is characterized by it's heavily clustered black population (The black belt) the UPLAND SOUTH isn't. It doesn't make that Sub region anyless Southern because of that ONE characteristic.

Then if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty the Upland South does have a relatively (compared to any other region and sub region in the country) heavily populated RURAL black population.

Besides, even Seattle (one of the "whitest" cities in the country) had hip hop artists that made it big. Does this mean that Seattle's "black culture" is stronger than the South's? HECK NOOOOOOOO!!!!!

COOOOOMMME ON DUDE We're talking about Nappy Roots here! This group is trademarked theme is rural Kentucky poverty, and Southern slang. Remember there hit singles on their debut album (entitled Watermelon Chicken and Gritz) were "Aw Naw" (Aw Naw Hell Naw Boy Yall done up and done it) and "Po Folks". This album placed Nappy Roots among Southern Hiphop elites. Kentucky Hiphop is apart of the "Dirty South" genre.

Nice try y'all, but KY does not have the amount of "black culture" that you would find in the South.

What's your point...IT'S STILL THERE!!!! Kentucky's rural black culture might not be at the forefront Rap city's countdown list, but it had it's time in the spotlight and is regaurded as Southern in that respect!

BTW you're placing entirely too much emphasis of Southern culture of the urban cultural amminities of blacks. Let's not forget that Alabama is still almost 3/4th's white. I guess that culture counts for nothing?

Post all of the pics and videos you guys want to (I really enjoyed the pics), it doesn't change the fact that "black culture" is MUCH stronger in the south.

THE LOWLAND SOUTH. I"m not denying that. It's simple logic just by looking at the black population density map that the Lowland South is the forefront of rural black culture. You however attempt to say that this Lowland Culture is the epitome of Southern culture and it's not. The Upland South while it's a different sub region of the South is still just as Southern as the others.

Heck, even some midwestern states have stronger black culture than Kentucky (if we are going to be honest about this topic).

YEAH in the URBAN areas, which got there black population from the South (including Kentucky). Just look at the damn density map compare Kentucky's rural black population density to any Midwestern state... IT doesn't compare plain and simple! This is a Southern attribute. Kentucky's situation is most similar to upland Tennessee (which is most of that state).

quote: "Ironically, the D.C. metro area has the best-educated black population of the cities, boasting the highest percentage of high school and college graduates. The No. 2 pick, Atlanta, GA, continues to impress. The city is home to 64,000 black-owned businesses and continues to offer extensive entrepreneurial opportunities. No. 3, Raleigh-Durham, NC, boasted a 3.4% rise in job growth, the highest employment statistic among the cities ranked. Rounding out the 10 best cities for African Americans list is: No. 4, Houston, TX; No. 5, Nashville, TN; No. 6, Dallas, TX; No. 7, Charlotte, NC; No. 8, Indianapolis, IN; No. 9, Columbus, OH; and No. 10, Jacksonville, FL."

POINT BEING Columbus and Naptown are the list which spits in the fact of these rankings being tied to "Southerness".

This much is a fact that isn't even debatable.

Because you refuse to see where in the realize that Kentucky's black UNLIKE THE REST OF THE COUNTRY (Other than the South) is not clustered entirely within it's major urban areas. If you refuse to acknowledge that this is a Southern attribute then that's your own problem everyone else has!

In Louisville, my wife and I felt more comfortable walking around the 4th Street Live area than we do in ANY part of Charlotte. It is not that Charlotte isn't an open minded city (it is). Charlotte just has a stronger "stay black" culture than what you would find in Louisville.

LMAO Now that's a compete u-turn from the argument that you made earlier that the more progressive metro areas of NC and VA with the influx of non Southerners are what the new epitome of Southern is. Explain why wouldn't the metro areas dilluted Southern culture in these two Mid-atlan....I mean Southern states be less progressive then "Old South minus the black population" Kentucky?

On a side note you're kind of wrong on that one. If you have family here then there will more than likely be atleast one aunt or cousin to frown upon the romance.

[urbancharlotte]

^^^^I understand what you are saying about Nappy Roots. However, they are from Bowling Green if my memory serves me correct. Bowling Green is down towards "Cashville". This IS NOT the majority of KY's population. The majority of Kentuckians live near or north of I-64.

I have already posted the most recent census data for KY vs southern states (as well as midwestern states). KY (for the most part) has the growth and minority population of southern Indiana and southern Ohio.

Again, I am not going to go line by line and argue anything anyone says simply because it is pointless. I have already posted the facts that separate KY from the south. Everything else at this point is classic subjective Kentucky "wannabe southern" blah blah blah. The very fact that a thread like this even exists (and is quickly approaching 30 pages) is proof that KY's "southern credentials" are rather suspect.

[pappy van winkle]

I've been following this thread (and forum) for awhile and I just had to register to post here. Most people have covered pretty much everything (more than a few times...), but I just wanted to say...North Carolina? Really?

Sorry but North Carolina is well on it's way to becoming (if not already there) the least Southern of all Southern states, excluding Florida. This is just speculation, but I am not even sure if the South claims NC anymore, or if most of NC claims the South culturally. I am not trying to put down NC, I am just calling it how I see it. NC has always kinda been looked over also because they're not in the SEC.

UrbanCharlotte, you seem to be implying that NC is very similar to Louisiana or Mississippi or other deep south states and this is simply not the case. You are right in that Kentucky is not all that similar to to these states (relatively), but neither is NC. Actually, Western KY is almost identical in every way to North Mississippi. Your logic is just flawed in several ways. And as many have already stated, Southern culture != black culture. It just doesn't. I could go on, but this thread is starting to get very reppetative.