Is Kentucky the south or the midwest? (Lexington, Louisville: appointed, agriculture)

[dixiegirl7]

Originally Posted by CraigCreek

Montana Mom: You live in Western North Carolina, yet find Kentucky "Appalachian-ey", and "didn't like it at all".

Umm, if Kentucky is too "Appalachian-ey" for you, then what on earth do you make of Western North Carolina? Is that very lovely part of the world "real south", rather than "Appalachian-ey" in your estimation?

The highest peaks in the eastern United States are located in Western North Carolina, which is also noted for traditional music and dance, crafts, Scots-Irish heritage, traditional stories and folklore straight from the British Isles...all classic Appalachian qualities. Log cabins. Coverlets. Cornbread. Other corn products. All Appalachian...rather than deep South, unless you refer to the Ozarks, which share most of this heritage.

For that matter, quintessential mountain man/explorer/pioneer Daniel Boone lived in both Western North Carolina and various parts of Kentucky (and in a number of other places).

So maybe you don't think of Western North Carolina as "Appalachian-ey", or maybe you just live there for now but don't like it, either?? Help me out here - I'm confused by the apparent contradictions in your post and your present location.

(For the record, my Scots-Irish and previously Pennsyvania Dutch ancestors lived in Buncombe County, NC long ago, and my g-g-g-grandfather owned what's now the Biltmore Estate lands - and Mount Pisgah - as part of a Revolutionary War grant. I know my mountains. And yes, Kentucky is southern, and parts of it are Appalachian. Southern Appalachian, that is)

I had the same thoughts, I find that part of North Carolina a whole lot like Kentucky in some ways. Does Applalachian-ey mean the same things as hillbilly-ee? If so, she could be right...lol.

[solytaire]

Isnt this getting kind of out of hand? I mean, even the people that dont think Kentucky is southern actually think its southern. Montana Mom has stated that she thinks Kentucky resembles Tennessee, but KY isnt the "real south"...well if Tennessee isnt Southern I dont know what is. Maybe she meant that KY isnt the Deep South...which I dont see how anyone can argue that it is the Deep South.. Neither is VA, NC, TN, or most of AR...but they are still no doubt southern, as is KY.

I think most people are just trying to state the degree and the type of Southerness that KY is (Much in the same way that one could differentiate TN, VA, or NC from the Deep South/"Real South") . But only one person is really disputing the fact that the state is altogether Southern. And even he is waffling a lot, if you really read his posts closely.

I dont see what more there is to argue.

[missymomof3]

Originally Posted by solytaire

Isnt this getting kind of out of hand? I mean, even the people that dont think Kentucky is southern actually think its southern. Montana Mom has stated that she thinks Kentucky resembles Tennessee, but KY isnt the "real south"...well if Tennessee isnt Southern I dont know what is. Maybe she meant that KY isnt the Deep South...which I dont see how anyone can argue that it is the Deep South.. Neither is VA, NC, TN, or most of AR...but they are still no doubt southern, as is KY.

I think most people are just trying to state the degree and the type of Southerness that KY is (Much in the same way that one could differentiate TN, VA, or NC from the Deep South/"Real South") . But only one person is really disputing the fact that the state is altogether Southern. And even he is waffling a lot, if you really read his posts closely.

I dont see what more there is to argue.

Good post!

[urbancharlotte]

Originally Posted by pappy van winkle

I love that you continually try to argue that Kentucky is not Southern because its not "progressive". Or at least that's what you seem to be implying. Hilarious.

I never used the word "progressive" in my mayoral posts. Do you feel KY is less "progressive"? Is THAT what YOU took from those posts?

And no one has yet answered my question of what "southerness" means to a Kentuckian. I have been quite blunt in my feelings about what is "southern" and what is not. To me, there is NO WAY a state can be "southern" and have a black population that is smaller than NC's hispanic population. "The South" (with the exception of WV and KY; two of the most midwestern "southern " states I've seen) are not culturally (black folks y'all) in step with the real south. It is what it is. Other than that, both are VERY nice states and I might one day return. Still, they aren't anymore southern than they are midwestern (heck, some eastern parts of WV is kinda mid-Atlantic).

As for KY, I find it too funny that y'all want to be considered "southern". I am willing to bet that if the midwest were the booming/growing region economically (and in population) ALL of y'all would be on that Midwestern band wagon. KY plays the side of the winning team. Being that the south is "winning" KY wants to be southern. When the Midwest starts to boom again (if ever that happens) KY would want NOTHING to do with "the south". Even during the Civil War, KY eventually sided with the Union (the winners). This is the TRUE nature of a border state. Who ever is "winning" is who the "border state" wants to be associated with. In this case, KY wants to be "southern". Imagine that! History repeats itself y'all. KY is just being KY (siding with the "winners").

[mdawg]

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

I never used the word "progressive" in my mayoral posts. Do you feel KY is less "progressive"? Is THAT what YOU took from those posts?

And no one has yet answered my question of what "southerness" means to a Kentuckian. I have been quite blunt in my feelings about what is "southern" and what is not. To me, there is NO WAY a state can be "southern" and have a black population that is smaller than NC's hispanic population. "The South" (with the exception of WV and KY; two of the most midwestern "southern " states I've seen) are not culturally (black folks y'all) in step with the real south. It is what it is. Other than that, both are VERY nice states and I might one day return. Still, they aren't anymore southern than they are midwestern (heck, some eastern parts of WV is kinda mid-Atlantic).

As for KY, I find it too funny that y'all want to be considered "southern". I am willing to bet that if the midwest were the booming/growing region economically (and in population) ALL of y'all would be on that Midwestern band wagon. KY plays the side of the winning team. Being that the south is "winning" KY wants to be southern. When the Midwest starts to boom again (if ever that happens) KY would want NOTHING to do with "the south". Even during the Civil War, KY eventually sided with the Union (the winners). This is the TRUE nature of a border state. Who ever is "winning" is who the "border state" wants to be associated with. In this case, KY wants to be "southern". Imagine that! History repeats itself y'all. KY is just being KY (siding with the "winners").

In case YOU forgot, YOU were the one who told us Asheville was more progressive because they elected a black mayor.

So now this about the winners and the losers? I think you need to stop rambling on about something you know quite little about. Did Kentucky REALLY side with the Union after the war? I don't think so. There were, and still are, 62 Civil War monuments erected after the war ended. 61 out of the 62 monuments are dedicated to the Confederacy. So did Kentucky REALLY side with the winners? I don't think so. Kentucky was much in favor of state's rights, just like every other southern state.

Southernness to me is sweet tea, fried food, country music, pick-up trucks with confederate flag decals(try to find them anywhere outside of the south), hot sticky summers, southern accents, sitting on the front porch with the neighbors, NASCAR, high school and college football, spring break in the Redneck Riviera (Florida Panhandle), going to the lake in the summer with friends, bourbon and whiskey, mint juleps, Churchill Downs (and the infield at Derby), Keeneland, camo, magnolia trees... I could go on and on but I'll let some other people answer...

[JefferyT]

Really? I don't think so. Louisville is a blend of South and Midwest. So is much of KY. It is not a bad thing. You don't see threads asking if Georgia or Tennessee is southern or not. The fact that you see threads like this proves it is not 100% southern. Now preparing for the LouisvilleSlugger maps and tirade ...

...lol, LouisvilleSlugger is good with that! Louisville is probably the ultimate border city of America, Midwestern city in Southern drag? Maybe that mix and border-ness is what makes the place so interesting and rich.

I do feel northern KY suburbs around Cincy are pretty Midwestern...

They do a sort of campy riff on "southern": The ironic "Florence Y'all" water tower comes to mind. And "Rabbit Hash" on the Ohio. But thats not what Northern Kentucky is really about. When one is down in Covington and Newport it's more like Pittsburgh and maybe Baltimore with the narrow houses and dense old neighborhoods, and, in the case of Newport, the Italian element.

[CraigCreek]

The older parts of the cities of Northern Kentucky are far more German in heritage and influence than they are Italian (other than having some nice examples of 19th century "Italianate" architecture). The Kentucky side of the Ohio River grew at the same time as did Cincinnati, just over on the northern bank, and the growth was due to the same folks: immigrants from Germany who came across the pond in the 1840s and 1850s due to unrest back home in the old country. As noted elsewhere by another poster, the growth of steamboat travel on the Ohio River and ample resources in the Ohio River Valley led to both increased settlement and rapid growth of big industrial cities like Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and to a somewhat lesser degree, Louisville.

Although some Germans settled in the South (notably in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley) much earlier, this later and much larger wave of immigration's cultural traditions and folkways are still very apparent in Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky (and to a lesser degree, in Louisville). These are all very interesting places with colorful histories - but very different from the more traditionally "Southern" parts of Kentucky.

[urbancharlotte]

Originally Posted by mdawg

Southernness to me is sweet tea

Which you've got to specifically ask for in most parts of KY.

Originally Posted by mdawg

fried food, country music,

Which you can find ANYWHERE in America.

Originally Posted by mdawg

pick-up trucks with confederate flag decals (try to find them anywhere outside of the south)

New Jersey Rebel
Flickr Photo Download: Rebel without a Cerebrum

Originally Posted by mdawg

hot sticky summers, southern accents, sitting on the front porch with the neighbors, NASCAR, high school and college football, spring break in the Redneck Riviera (Florida Panhandle), going to the lake in the summer with friends, bourbon and whiskey,

You've just described much of Cincy, Louisville, St. Louis, and Kansas City.

Originally Posted by mdawg

mint juleps, Churchill Downs (and the infield at Derby)

Half of this stuff doesn't even take place in a southern state.

Originally Posted by mdawg

I could go on and on

PLEASE don't. I am laughing soooooo hard that I almost wet myself!!!

Like I've said before. What REALLY makes the south "southern" is the relatively low percentage of non-hispanic whites (and relatively high percentage of blacks) in a VERY rural region of America. No other "rural" region of America has such ethnic diversity. This is due in large part to slavery and the south's farming culture that has MANY hispanics moving to southern states for work (NC's hispanic population outnumbers KY's black population by more than 2 to 1; this margin is MUCH higher in states like GA and FL)

Geography is yet another factor. Due to KY being south of the Ohio River, KY is defined by the US census as being "southern". Other than that (census definition), KY could EASILY be mistaken as a midwestern state (hence, the reason for this thread).

History is another factor. KY was like Missouri during the Civil War (neutral state). Eventually, KY sided with the Union. This is NOT how the real southern states acted during the war. Real southern states fought until the end (and resisted ALL efforts of reconstruction that followed the war). During the Civil War, the "real southern" states lost their representation in congress.

All Southern states were readmitted to representation in Congress by the end of 1870, the last being Georgia. All but 500 top Confederate leaders were pardoned when President Grant signed the Amnesty Act of 1872.


Readmission to representation in Congress

• Tennessee – July 24, 1866
• Arkansas – June 22, 1868
• Florida – June 25, 1868
• North Carolina – July 4, 1868
• South Carolina – July 9, 1868
• Louisiana – July 9, 1868
• Alabama – July 13, 1868
• Virginia – January 26, 1870
• Mississippi – February 23, 1870
• Texas - March 30, 1870
• Georgia – July 15, 1870

Reconstruction era of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^^^I don't see KY on this list. Imagine that.


In short, KY is KY. Let's just leave it at that.

[montanamom]

Dixiegirl7 said it. It's hillbilly-ee. And yes, I'm in Western North Carolina, but I'm in the foothills, which I much prefer. I guess I'm just not a "mountain people" person.

[urbancharlotte]

Originally Posted by montanamom

Dixiegirl7 said it. It's hillbilly-ee. And yes, I'm in Western North Carolina, but I'm in the foothills, which I much prefer. I guess I'm just not a "mountain people" person.

This kinda reminds me a cute girl telling a rather eager guy "You just aren't my type". The guy then (foolishly) asked this attractive girl "Why am I not your type?" As a result, the girl ends up getting tired of this guy and calls him "short, fat, and ugly" to his face. Now, if this guy would have just gone with her original statement of "You just aren't my type" he would not have been insulted by this nice girl.

My point being Montanamom was trying to be kind when she said "Appalachian-ey". Now some of y'all have forced her to call KY a "hillbilly-ee" state. Don't get mad at her because some of y'all kinda asked for it. Just saying...

Now, Montanamom brings up a VERY interesting point. In the real south, Appalachian areas are influenced by quite a few decent sized cities or metros.

In the case of Western NC, Asheville has an impact on the culture and mentality of the area. In the foothills of Western NC (believe it or not) Charlotte has an impact on the culture of this area; it is ONLY a 45 minute (to an hour) drive from Charlotte to NC's foothill area (just imagine how different eastern KY would be if a city the size of Cincy were less than an hour away). In addition to metro Charlotte and Asheville, NC's foothills has the lesser known Hickory metro area. This metro area has nearly 370,000 people and is located in between Charlotte and Asheville. It borders metro Charlotte to the North West and is often thought to be a part of Charlotte's 2.4 million CSA population (but it is not). Hickory and Charlotte combined has just over 2.7 million people. Add Asheville's 400,000 to Hickory's (almost) 400,000 and we have 800,000 people living in a metropolitan area here in Western NC. This just can not be compared to eastern KY in ANY way except for the fact that they both (NC and KY) have mountains. Also, Asheville and much of western NC listens to the pop and hip-hop stations down in Charlotte or Greenville SC (yes, they can hear most of Charlotte's and Greenville's stations up there).You'll need satellite radio in Eastern KY for sure if you like real hip hop stations. Trust me, I KNOW!!!

In Eastern Tenn, Knoxville has a HUGE impact. North Georgia is influenced by either Atlanta or Chattanooga. North West SC has the 1 million plus metro of Greenville. Western Virginia and extreme eastern Tenn has the Johnson City/Kingsport/Bristol metro area. Western Virginia also Roanoke. North West NC has Winston-Salem and Johnson City (and let's not forget the somewhat liberal tourist town of Boone). Heck, even WV has Charleston, Bluefield, and Beckley.

Kentucky's Appalachian areas (Eastern Kentucky) just does not have a larger southern city close to it (I should know; I've driven the US 23 corridor MANY times in my career). With that said, eastern KY is about as "Appalachian-ey" as it gets. To lump eastern KY in with the Appalachian areas of the real south is just kinda silly. Anyone who would attempt to make such a comparison just hasn't spent a lot of time in these areas.

TO Slugger:

I finally had the chance to read your post about KY and Tenn's percentage of blacks (the one where you deleted the population of Memphis). My response to that post is "cooooooooome oooooooooooon bruh"!!! How on Earth can you call this a "fair" comparison? If you really wanted to be "fair", you would have deleted Memphis and LOUISVILLE out of each state AND YOU KNOW IT!!! The next time you decide to "cut and paste" major cities within a southern state, just make sure you take Louisville out of KY too. Then make your comparison.