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The amount of misinformation I hear/read on the radio & on Facebook every day about the pension problem is astounding. Nearly 90% of the people I hear on Kentucky talk radio are under the impression that current and retired teachers are getting their pensions pensions ripped out from under them. I have a feeling the KTA has done a good job at keeping them misinformed, seeing as it works in their benefit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by otterhere
Exactly, and of course all these teacher protests are just part and parcel of a larger agenda. Mob rule.
Here’s the bottom line, there is no way I, or most people familiar with education, would advise any new teacher to work as a teacher in the state - not with ineligibility for Social Security (even if they had worked a job for years where they contributed just like everyone else) and a pension solely dependent on investments. Please note that no Social Security part, that means a Kentucky teacher could very well end up penniless with no safety net in their old age if a stock market crash hits at the wrong time. Kentucky will have to rely on hoping they can get teachers who are financially ignorant who have given no thought to their own future financial stability. Or teachers desperate for a job.... better known as less competent teachers.
Kentucky is surrounded by states that pay better, as it is now. The border districts already struggle to put qualified teachers in their classrooms, particularly Jefferson County and the Northern Kentucky semi-urban districts. This will make it even harder.
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Just heard, from a VERY reliable source, that not only was Kentucky Carpetbagger Anti-Education Governor Matt Bevin booed and hissed by irate Kentuckians and sympathizers at both the Derby Week Pegasus Parade as well as the Kentucky Derby last Saturday - but he was also bitten by a horse.
Highly intelligent creatures, thoroughbreds.
You can find videos online of a pink-jacketed Bevin running - literally running, as if for the roses - alongside his security detail in the parade while being lustily booed by onlookers. Don't know what kind of trophy he was expecting, but I would have bet on him to win, place, or show, considering the pace he was setting.
"...And politics - the damnedest,
in Kentucky..."
Last edited by CraigCreek; 05-11-2018 at 11:11 AM..
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
11,974 posts, read 25,473,841 times
Reputation: 12187
I think it's fair to say that teachers are underpaid and education administrators are mostly overpaid. JCPS has a spokesperson that makes $150k a year! I doubt the site manager at my work places makes that.
Oldclothesandsuch and Otterhere, kudos to you guys. It's not easy having a different perspective than the "mob" majority. Seeing you guys stand up for your common sense points, page after page, against users who are resorting to name-calling rhetoric to articulate their points--all whilst claiming that this isn't partisan or politically motivated--is great. I originally wasn't going to participate, but I felt it was my obligation to tell you that I and probably several viewers agree with your points.
I mean come on, we're seeing terms like carpetbagger and anti-education being thrown around as if they're incontrovertibly true and not just the subjective framing of a political perspective. Soon people will start using phrasings like "child-hating" or "pension-stealing". Speaking as someone who plans on relocating to another state soon to be with a more agreeable political constituency//deal with less draconian laws, to think I might be called a carpetbagger if I decide to run for office is silly. By those standards, the majority of all of politicians throughout American history have been "carpetbaggers." By those standards, Abraham Lincoln would've been a carpetbagger before the term was even coined, running for office in Republican-dominant Illinois as opposed to his native Kentucky--which voted against him twice.
Not like I have any dog in this race, I am a teacher but not in the state of Kentucky. That said, I think for teachers to demand tax payers supplement any wage-increase or sustain their pensions is ridiculous. Everybody knows what they're in for when they choose to teach in public schools. Couple that with the money they save by spending years not opting into SS and having summers off to pursue other work--and it becomes pretty ridiculous to demand that politicians use taxpayer dollars to pay you even more. Like it was said earlier, if someone's only plan for retirement is to live off a government pension that can be compromised through legislation or an economic crash--that's not a stable plan for the future. I do not subscribe to this notion that those who disapprove of the situation are devoid of responsibility and blameless victims.
Jefferson County Public Schools has more than 15,000 full-time equivalent employees, and nearly 600 of them earn more than $100,000 a year. The school district ranks as Louisville's second largest employer, according to Business First research.
Oldclothesandsuch and Otterhere, kudos to you guys. It's not easy having a different perspective than the "mob" majority. Seeing you guys stand up for your common sense points, page after page, against users who are resorting to name-calling rhetoric to articulate their points--all whilst claiming that this isn't partisan or politically motivated--is great. I originally wasn't going to participate, but I felt it was my obligation to tell you that I and probably several viewers agree with your points.
I mean come on, we're seeing terms like carpetbagger and anti-education being thrown around as if they're incontrovertibly true and not just the subjective framing of a political perspective. Soon people will start using phrasings like "child-hating" or "pension-stealing". Speaking as someone who plans on relocating to another state soon to be with a more agreeable political constituency//deal with less draconian laws, to think I might be called a carpetbagger if I decide to run for office is silly. By those standards, the majority of all of politicians throughout American history have been "carpetbaggers." By those standards, Abraham Lincoln would've been a carpetbagger before the term was even coined, running for office in Republican-dominant Illinois as opposed to his native Kentucky--which voted against him twice.
Not like I have any dog in this race, I am a teacher but not in the state of Kentucky. That said, I think for teachers to demand tax payers supplement any wage-increase or sustain their pensions is ridiculous. Everybody knows what they're in for when they choose to teach in public schools. Couple that with the money they save by spending years not opting into SS and having summers off to pursue other work--and it becomes pretty ridiculous to demand that politicians use taxpayer dollars to pay you even more. Like it was said earlier, if someone's only plan for retirement is to live off a government pension that can be compromised through legislation or an economic crash--that's not a stable plan for the future. I do not subscribe to this notion that those who disapprove of the situation are devoid of responsibility and blameless victims.
Interesting.
Speaking of "name-calling", you fail to note that Governor Matt Bevin referred to teachers as "thugs".
My mother, aunts, grandmother, uncles, and cousins were not and are not thugs. Nor did any of them become wealthy at public expense, nor did any of them put personal gain above their profession. Can Matt Bevin say the same about himself??
Simple as that.
A "carpetbagger" is someone who moves elsewhere solely for personal political and/or financial gain, without regard to the well-being of those he or she is elected to represent. Bevin qualifies on every count.
Lincoln moved to Illinois from Indiana as a young man. He read and practiced law in Illinois for several years before entering politics. Lincoln was not a carpetbagger.
By the way, Lincoln left his birth state of Kentucky with his family when he was a young child - about seven or eight years old. Didn't you know he grew up in Indiana?
As for teachers knowing what they are in for when they enter the profession, that's just the problem.
Like other public employees, teachers found that the promises made to them - legal promises - were not being kept, and that their pensions, into which they themselves had paid, along with their employers, were imperiled by Frankfort politicians' meddling and failure to pay into the pensions and maintain them as they were legally (and morally and ethically) required to do.
That's what the Kentucky protests were about. Frankfort politicians failed to keep their end of the bargain, and public pensions suffered as a result. Teachers and public employees just want the law to be honored and enforced.
Your stated belief that teachers should not expect taxpayers to sustain their pensions is mind-boggling. Our state government is tax-supported. The state is required to pay its share into teacher and public employee pensions, obviously using tax funds to do so.
So yes, it could be said that taxpayers fund teacher and public employee pensions. Why should they not do so, especially as they and their children are the primary beneficiaries of those same teachers' and other public employee's professions?
Who sits in the classrooms? The children of taxpayers. Who benefits by police and fire protection? Taxpayers. Who borrows all those books and other materials from the public libraries? Taxpayers. Who benefits by public health departments? Taxpayers.
Are you saying that these institutions and their employees should not be publicly funded? Or that public employees and teachers have no right to expect what they've been promised, or that those promises should never have been made in the first place, or that even though those promises were made, they don't need to be kept if it's inconvenient for state government to do so? Are you saying that the state has the right to use funds specifically set aside for teacher and public employee pensions for other things and not pay those funds back in?
Are you really a teacher? You certainly don't sound like any teacher I've ever encountered, especially with your comments about social security, summers off, etc. Real teachers know that "summers off" are rarely that - typically, they stay an extra two weeks after school closes, return two weeks to prepare for the new school year, and spend time in between working on advanced degrees. What's left is hardly a full summer. All this, for employment which consistently pays less than does the private sector for comparable work with the same educational requirements.
Why do they do this? Well, most of them love kids and love teaching. The best have that fire, and they pass it down: a passion for learning. No one goes into education or public employment - outside of elected office - to get rich. Except rich in the knowledge that they've changed lives for the better, on a daily basis.
That sort of wealth is incalculable - but it doesn't pay the rent or buy the groceries. Pensions do. And teachers, and other public employees have earned those pensions, and are entitled to them by any calculation you care to use: again, ethically, morally - and legally.
That's why the teachers marched in Frankfort. I have a feeling that if Abe Lincoln were still around, he would have been marching right along beside them.
Last edited by CraigCreek; 05-22-2018 at 07:57 AM..
MilllennialMaverick: Your claim to be a teacher was intriguing, considering your viewpoint, so I just checked some of your previous posts and found that you are teaching high school history and social studies. You had this to say about your present position:
"This is my first career as well, more of my safety net than anything else. A way to make money initially and have a back up if my other professional ventures don't pan out..."
So, you view teaching as a stop-gap, temporary job rather than as a career. You have no real passion for it, and I see no sign of investment in your students.
I expect you do an adequate job and meet your requirements - but you are not a great teacher and are likely never to be one.
Great teachers care passionately about their subjects and their students. They are primarily invested in conveying that passion to those whom they teach, rather than in teaching as a "back up".
I hope you find other employment soon, and that a better teacher takes your place, for your students' sake. They deserve better than you, much better.
Meanwhile, your pontificating against Kentucky teachers' marching for their rights and calling out their supporters here on C-D seems rather ironic, given your own lack of commitment and caring about your current work.
Oldclothesandsuch and Otterhere, kudos to you guys. It's not easy having a different perspective than the "mob" majority. Seeing you guys stand up for your common sense points, page after page, against users who are resorting to name-calling rhetoric to articulate their points--all whilst claiming that this isn't partisan or politically motivated--is great. I originally wasn't going to participate, but I felt it was my obligation to tell you that I and probably several viewers agree with your points.
I mean come on, we're seeing terms like carpetbagger and anti-education being thrown around as if they're incontrovertibly true and not just the subjective framing of a political perspective. Soon people will start using phrasings like "child-hating" or "pension-stealing". Speaking as someone who plans on relocating to another state soon to be with a more agreeable political constituency//deal with less draconian laws, to think I might be called a carpetbagger if I decide to run for office is silly. By those standards, the majority of all of politicians throughout American history have been "carpetbaggers." By those standards, Abraham Lincoln would've been a carpetbagger before the term was even coined, running for office in Republican-dominant Illinois as opposed to his native Kentucky--which voted against him twice.
Not like I have any dog in this race, I am a teacher but not in the state of Kentucky. That said, I think for teachers to demand tax payers supplement any wage-increase or sustain their pensions is ridiculous. Everybody knows what they're in for when they choose to teach in public schools. Couple that with the money they save by spending years not opting into SS and having summers off to pursue other work--and it becomes pretty ridiculous to demand that politicians use taxpayer dollars to pay you even more. Like it was said earlier, if someone's only plan for retirement is to live off a government pension that can be compromised through legislation or an economic crash--that's not a stable plan for the future. I do not subscribe to this notion that those who disapprove of the situation are devoid of responsibility and blameless victims.
Thank you, MM; I appreciate that. Unfortunately, the strategy is to silence dissenting opinions -- or at least drown them out! It would appear that it's some people's mission in life (if not full-time job) to do so.
Thank you, MM; I appreciate that. Unfortunately, the strategy is to silence dissenting opinions -- or at least drown them out! It would appear that it's some people's mission in life (if not full-time job) to do so.
Lol and as you can see, as soon as I dare agree with you guys and state my own dissenting opinion, they start questioning my motives and qualifications. They know nothing about me, yet presume to know my merits or qualifications. Going as far as to question me being a teacher, or saying I'm not a great one because I have a difference of perspective from them. Absolutely rich.
Do you know why you guys are referred to as the "mob" and your points aren't well taken? Because of behavior like this. If you can't recognize how this comes off from the other side, then you're not interested in having a dialogue or understanding. If you don't care, so be it--disparage and assume the worst from those who disagree with you and entrance yourselves in an echo chamber further. That's pretty much what this whole thread is, except for the two other dissenters who I give credit to.
I think it was proven that this discussion is futile and you guys might as well be standing in front of a mirror orating these points. I certainly don't see the merit in having a discussion those who assume motives and qualifications based on a dissenting opinion. Ill leave it here with these final points;
-Two wrongs don't make a right; you cannot claim to be morally justified in using name calling rhetoric when you are outraged by its very use.
-Bevin lived in Kentucky for almost two decades, operated his company here, and paid taxes here. He lived in Kentucky 16 years before becoming Governor, Lincoln lived in Illinois 17 years before becoming a Congressman. According to your definitions, they're both carpetbaggers. According to the actual definition, neither are carpetbaggers. Thankfully, the framers of the Kentucky constitution recognized that the only qualification one needs to represent their state is to reside in the state for a few years. Residents representing other residents, simple as it gets. It's pretty elistist to claim that because you have lived in a place longer or have stronger familial ties, you are automatically more qualified to represent the area. Clearly the majority of Kentuckians don't agree, otherwise he wouldn't be Governor.
-If being a carpetbagger means moving somewhere for financial gain, then most of us are carpetbaggers. Just about everything we structure our lives around is for financial gain, as it should be. All immigrants and transplants are carpetbaggers then (as if...)
-Just because you've never met teachers who don't have your views on policy, doesn't mean we don't exist. Seriously, you ought to consider who you're having these conversations with and see if you're actually learning something as opposed to hearing things you've already heard.
That's all I gotta say. My hope is that discussions like these won't turn into the public bashing that they are. I spoke up out of necessity for the users being vilified. I can imagine that as this thread gets thousands of views, there are others who agree with us but are reluctant to participate because of the hostile environment you've created. That's a real shame.
Last edited by MillennialMaverick; 05-22-2018 at 11:46 AM..
MM, I disagree with a lot of what you have said, but not your right to say it. Everybody has their own opinion.
But I am a retiree from the Commonwealth of Kentucky and have seen things like this going on in Frankfort every year of the 26 years I worked there. I know it's been said several times but Frankfort took our pension fund to pay other bills. Money that was, by law, not to be touched except by retirees. Now that there's enough of an uproar to put the money back, they are making not just teachers, but all state workers pay it back. After working for the state for 20 years, state employees have their health insurance paid for life. Just theirs, not spouse's or family. I'm waiting to see that be one of the next things to be taken from the retirees by Frankfort, or try to cut what we're already getting.
This is one thread that could go on for years and years with nobody agreeing on anything.
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