Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
like I have said before, I was around when I-66 was dreamed up. It wasn't intended to benefit any one city or state, it was intended to benefit the whole country. In the beginning a rail system was also in visioned along with a four or six lane limited access interstate. Probably the rail system would be more beneficial to move freight from the east to west or west to east and even possibly an AM Track of a sort. As for the river and the caves...just deal with it...what's most beneficial to the most people involved.
The rail system surly would take a lot of the cross country trucks off the road thus, a loss of fuel tax money for the politicians to buy votes with.
Somerset had some traffic problems (US-27 for the most part, I wouldn't say it was as bad as Lexington or Louisville) and if all the new roads don't take care of it they can't say it was for the lack of money. Have you all been to Somerset lately? If not you need to go look around. And, they ain't done yet.
In my opinion, I know it ain't worth much but, Lexington and Louisville would be less appealing to me if they had streetcars and trains running every where. Could it possibly be that Kentucky and even Louisville and Lexington is right and everywhere else is wrong? We all can't be like California. Just a thought...like I said it's a matter of opinion.
Well, IMO right is right, and wrong is wrong. You have to understand some of the reasons why things turned out the way they did & why we're such a car-centric country now. A lot it had to do with big auto & big oil companies working in cahoots buying up city streetcars so they could run them into the ground (so more would have to drive themselves around and/or use crappy buses that use gas). There's other reasons of course (suburban sprawl, "white flight" & such), but that is indeed a fact:
You should also watch an older PBS documentary called "Taken For A Ride". It'll give you much more insight than I ever could about how we got to this point: Taken for a Ride (1996) - IMDb
So yes, I do believe it was a huge mistake letting our public transportation infrastructure crumble so that we're solely reliant on our cars & Lex/Louisville isn't right for not trying to rectify it like so many other cities are doing now. I'm not talking about getting rid of cars & roads, but a choice would be nice.
BTW, California has nothing to do with anything. Let's look at what's currently going on now across the nation. San Fran & New Orleans never stopped their streetcars (and have actually added lines). But what about places like Boston, Newark, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Seattle, Portland, Galveston, Dallas, Memphis, Tampa, Little Rock, & more. All open now, all being used. Some are brand new, some have been restored from their glory days.
Upcoming new ones that are being finalized or have broken ground: Atlanta, Baltimore, Buffalo, Calgary, Charlotte, DC, Dallas, Denver, Edmonton, Houston, Jersey City, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, Ottawa, Phoenix, Portland, Sacramento, St Louis, Salt Lake City, San Diego, San Jose. And these are all just streetcars. I didn't even count subways, light rail systems, etc (which a lot of those cities already currently have in operation).
So see what I mean? It's not just California or so-called "Liberal" places that are doing this. It's everywhere (even the "conservative" south). Kentucky is almost always late to the game with this kind of stuff & brings up the rear. That's sorta been their thing throughout history. So no, I don't think they're right & all of those places are wrong.
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
11,974 posts, read 25,473,841 times
Reputation: 12187
I'd love to see a new national park created around those caves - I think Cumberland Caves has a nice ring to it -, Cumberland Falls, and the Rockcastle River. Imagine the added tourism revenue flooding into the region. I-66 could be called America's Cave Corridor, a parkway connecting a pair of national parks that contain the world's longest and fifth longest cave systems.
Well, IMO right is right, and wrong is wrong. You have to understand some of the reasons why things turned out the way they did & why we're such a car-centric country now. A lot it had to do with big auto & big oil companies working in cahoots buying up city streetcars so they could run them into the ground (so more would have to drive themselves around and/or use crappy buses that use gas). There's other reasons of course (suburban sprawl, "white flight" & such), but that is indeed a fact:
You should also watch an older PBS documentary called "Taken For A Ride". It'll give you much more insight than I ever could about how we got to this point: Taken for a Ride (1996) - IMDb
So yes, I do believe it was a huge mistake letting our public transportation infrastructure crumble so that we're solely reliant on our cars & Lex/Louisville isn't right for not trying to rectify it like so many other cities are doing now. I'm not talking about getting rid of cars & roads, but a choice would be nice.
BTW, California has nothing to do with anything. Let's look at what's currently going on now across the nation. San Fran & New Orleans never stopped their streetcars (and have actually added lines). But what about places like Boston, Newark, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Seattle, Portland, Galveston, Dallas, Memphis, Tampa, Little Rock, & more. All open now, all being used. Some are brand new, some have been restored from their glory days.
Upcoming new ones that are being finalized or have broken ground: Atlanta, Baltimore, Buffalo, Calgary, Charlotte, DC, Dallas, Denver, Edmonton, Houston, Jersey City, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, Ottawa, Phoenix, Portland, Sacramento, St Louis, Salt Lake City, San Diego, San Jose. And these are all just streetcars. I didn't even count subways, light rail systems, etc (which a lot of those cities already currently have in operation).
So see what I mean? It's not just California or so-called "Liberal" places that are doing this. It's everywhere (even the "conservative" south). Kentucky is almost always late to the game with this kind of stuff & brings up the rear. That's sorta been their thing throughout history. So no, I don't think they're right & all of those places are wrong.
Good reading KerryB...I have learned something today. But, it would appear to me, that, from what I read the streetcar/electric train was in trouble before and because of the "Great Depression" and was probably on their way out anyway, which might explain why no one really paid much of a price for their actions. The demise of the streetcar/electric train was probably inevitable because of the invent of vehicles that was affordable to almost everyone. I wonder why Henry Ford wasn't in on the scandal? He was a smart guy and probably seen what was taking place and jumped on the opportunity. Ford may have been in on it anyway...it seems there is a lot of information that has never been found.
I think streetcars were a necessity at one time and, probably now would be nothing more than a novelty/tourist attraction but, what do I know?
I just used California as an example (I like to pick on California) because that's the only place I knew had streetcars running, again, what do I know?
If, and I don't have any reason to not believe you, all these cities you mentioned has or will have streetcars running, I can't imagine the cost to build just one of these systems and I also can imagine that we have a lot of tax money invested in almost all of them. Which brings me back to Kentucky. I'll use Lexington and Louisville, neither city has the funds available for such a project...I don't think. So, where is the money going to come from? State Government, maybe, but, would be, in my opinion, political suicide. Federal Government maybe but, do you really think the amount of money necessary to build a streetcar system in Louisville and Lexington is coming to Kentucky? Kentucky will only get the token amount that we are supposed to be satisfied with, except, for the strategically placed political investments which could very well be Lexington and/or Louisville.
So,we can cuss and discuss I-66 all we want to but, the fact is, it ain't happening.
On the other hand, Cumberland caves National Park, I think it's a sure thing. I can't wait for the grand opening.
Good reading KerryB...I have learned something today. But, it would appear to me, that, from what I read the streetcar/electric train was in trouble before and because of the "Great Depression" and was probably on their way out anyway, which might explain why no one really paid much of a price for their actions. The demise of the streetcar/electric train was probably inevitable because of the invent of vehicles that was affordable to almost everyone. I wonder why Henry Ford wasn't in on the scandal? He was a smart guy and probably seen what was taking place and jumped on the opportunity. Ford may have been in on it anyway...it seems there is a lot of information that has never been found.
I think streetcars were a necessity at one time and, probably now would be nothing more than a novelty/tourist attraction but, what do I know?
I just used California as an example (I like to pick on California) because that's the only place I knew had streetcars running, again, what do I know?
If, and I don't have any reason to not believe you, all these cities you mentioned has or will have streetcars running, I can't imagine the cost to build just one of these systems and I also can imagine that we have a lot of tax money invested in almost all of them. Which brings me back to Kentucky. I'll use Lexington and Louisville, neither city has the funds available for such a project...I don't think. So, where is the money going to come from? State Government, maybe, but, would be, in my opinion, political suicide. Federal Government maybe but, do you really think the amount of money necessary to build a streetcar system in Louisville and Lexington is coming to Kentucky? Kentucky will only get the token amount that we are supposed to be satisfied with, except, for the strategically placed political investments which could very well be Lexington and/or Louisville.
So,we can cuss and discuss I-66 all we want to but, the fact is, it ain't happening.
On the other hand, Cumberland caves National Park, I think it's a sure thing. I can't wait for the grand opening.
Thanks again
You're welcome. Yeah, it's true that a lot of the lines & streetcars were starting to need repaired, but thats like anything else. Maintenance is just a way of life for everything, including roads, cars, etc. But we seem to have no problem repairing these. I personally think it was an excuse they used to make them seem like less of the bad guys & give them more justification to do what they did. Meaning they were buying them up, running them into the ground (taking lines out or shortening them, running them less often, not making repairs, etc) to say "See! These things suck & just don't work." Obviously they had more to gain by doing this & people were less likely to use them if it was a bad system, making cars look more & more attractive.
It's also important to understand the influence these giant corporations & lobbyists had on our cities & the country in general. They could pretty much do whatever they wanted then & there was hardly any anti-trust stuff setup to prevent it. They had to get rid of the rail lines (which they shared with the cars at the time) so their product could grow.
Also the mindset of the country, from what I understand, after WWII was a lot more interest for this suburban type of living. It was really the birth of that whole movement. People wanted out of the cities, their own big home, their own cars, gas was super cheap then, etc. But also, there was A LOT of push from the higher ups in corporate America for that type of living too (since they benefitted from you having to drive everywhere). It created a lot of industries if everyone owned a car. So you could say that the automobile did help build the country, but at the same time was doing harm as well & went overboard.
I can remember another documentary I watched about how the suburbs came to be (I cant remember the name of it right now), but they showed a lot of old news reels from that era & they're hilarious, almost like propaganda films, about how great this way of life was. Naturally they were sponsored by big car companies, the "American Automobile Association" or some other companies that benefitted. I literally LOL'ed when I was watching it.
Anyways, regarding today how these places are paying to bring back some of these systems or make new ones, I'm not completely sure how they each do it. But I think a lot have found ways of tapping into some of the money that would be used to fund big highway projects & such. A lot of them get some matching grants from the Feds too, so I think they're able to keep any extra taxes for the people negligible.
You're right, I don't think Kentuckians will ever go for anything like this. Kentucky is mostly a lot of open, rural spaces without much overall density & doesn't have any really big urban metropolis areas (where traffic & commutes can be horrendous). Also, a lot of the cities here (like Lexington) aren't as old & really didn't get booming until after the automobile was in full swing, so they were sorta built around that instead of being built around pedestrians. So a lot of people here still probably see projects like this as boondoggles, a waste of money & will only benefit poor people (because in their minds, those are the only people who use public transportation).
When in reality, if you go to bigger cities, or to Europe, Asia, back 60 years ago in our own country, etc, its quite the opposite. So we're really at a weird point with all of this & dug ourselves in pretty deep I think when you look at the broader scope of it & the history. We used to have the best public transportation in the industrialized world. Now, we have the worst & it's practically non-existent for most people. Kinda makes you think & it's fascinating studying it, that's for sure...Kerry
P.S. I found an upload of that Taken For A Ride documentary if anyone wants to watch it. I think its OK to post here since its so old, not for sale anywhere & was on public broadcast: MEGAUPLOAD - Taken for a Ride (1996).avi
I'll do some more reading on the scandal when time permits.
As for after WWII, your right. People wanted to move out of the cities into the suburbs and many suburbs were created at that time. Autos were the new thing for a lot of people because they could afford them and as you said gas was cheep. I sold a lot of gas at my families "service station" back in the late 60's for 25 cents and less, if there was a gas war in effect. I can also remember the drive in theaters, drive in restaurants, and even today we have drive in everything.
I don't have a problem with people living in the cities and, if I lived in a larger city it would be nice to step out your front door and hop on a street car and go where ever I need to go. It's just not for me. During my reading about today's streetcars I did read about grants for some cities to build these systems, if all of them I don't know. I don't think cars will ever be anything less than what they are today as far as numbers. The love affair with the automobile is here to stay in my opinion. I'm for getting the most bang for the buck so to speak in terms of serving the most people as possible for the money you are spending. A lot of people live in the bigger cities and they should get the attention they justifiably need but, at the same time some of the smaller cities, towns and Counties need a boost IF, it is justifiable.
I never really been out of the country. I have visited several states including Hawaii...I'm just an old country boy that never felt the need or want to travel around the world, I guess I have missed out on a lot of what the world is all about. You know what they say "There's no place like home". I'm as happy as a pig in slop right where I'm at.
To each his own.
Thanks again
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yeah, it's true that a lot of the lines & streetcars were starting to need repaired, but thats like anything else. Maintenance is just a way of life for everything, including roads, cars, etc. But we seem to have no problem repairing these. I personally think it was an excuse they used to make them seem like less of the bad guys & give them more justification to do what they did. Meaning they were buying them up, running them into the ground (taking lines out or shortening them, running them less often, not making repairs, etc) to say "See! These things suck & just don't work." Obviously they had more to gain by doing this & people were less likely to use them if it was a bad system, making cars look more & more attractive.
