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Old 05-20-2008, 05:39 AM
 
Location: Kentucky
6,753 posts, read 14,930,114 times
Reputation: 2035

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[quote=jcm1986;3819886]I see your point, Missy. However, in the grand scheme of America with the post-martem of the Civil War, I think Joe is trying only to make a comparison of a place known for a distinctive "Southern" culture to a place that was "border" in allegiance during the war and still "border" in north/south cultural elements today. (In this case, Georgia v. Kentucky, namely Louisville.)QUOTE]

From the internet: With the return of Kentucky’s Confederate veterans after the South's defeat, the state entered upon a long period of championing the "Lost Cause." To have worn the Confederate gray made one a hero almost overnight, whereas those who wore Union blue and wished to run for political office kept silence as to their wartime service, as it was to be a definite political liability rather then an asset for the remainder of the nineteenth century. Kentucky's heart and soul went out in sympathy to the prostrate South. Confederate veterans were in the ascendancy, politically from 1867 until the mid-1890's. The heritage of Virginia asserted itself more ardently than it had done during the War. It has been said aptly that Kentucky waited until after Appomattox to secede.


JCM your experiences are not everyone else's. You have complained more than once about this great Commonwealth over things that quite frankly I don't think are quite as one sided as you make it out to be. I have had much different experiences here than you, as has most Kentuckians, and can't help but wonder if maybe you should take a look in the mirror.

Last edited by missymomof3; 05-20-2008 at 05:47 AM..
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Old 05-20-2008, 05:42 AM
 
Location: Kentucky
6,753 posts, read 14,930,114 times
Reputation: 2035
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcm1986 View Post
I have to say that even when I'm in Atlanta I still feel like I'm in a more Southern atmosphere in terms of culture, weather, vegetation, hospitality, and even the sheer number of beautiful women walking around as opposed to a place like Louisville. .
There are PLENTY of drop-dead gorgeous women in this wonderful state. Atlanta is also full of transplants, how do you know they were even natives?
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Central Kentucky
2 posts, read 18,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorganMRE View Post
Eeek. I disagree. I lived in Cincinnati for almost 2 years and there is no difference between Northern Kentucky and Cincinnati. People who were born and raised there will tell you differently because Kentuckians don't want to be associated with "buckeyes" and Cincinnatians don't want to be associated with "hicks." Truth is, it's just one giant spill over.
I agree. I have family in NKY, and I've always said once you hit Florence you're in Cincinnati. With this said, I would define NKY and possibly the Louisville Metro as "Midwest," but anywhere else, especially the purchase area, as staunchly "Southern."
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Central Kentucky
2 posts, read 18,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorganMRE View Post
Kentucky was a border state during the Civil War...?

But the Civil War came right through my part of the area and the people in my area fought for the Confederacy. We have Civil War reenactments every year and people bring their Confederate flags and sit there and cry. They get all into it. So yeah, Kentucky as a whole didn't fight for one particular side.
Yeah, my area was heavily Confederate as well. We too have reenactments every year, and Confederate officers are buried in our cemeteries.
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Old 05-20-2008, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Kentucky
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I have read that there is only one Union memorial in all of Kentucky and several Confederate, including one in Louisville.
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Old 05-23-2008, 08:51 PM
 
Location: south carolina
33 posts, read 78,040 times
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W. Virginia is a border state, in the civil war era and today.- but its mostly northern.
Compare Louisville with a same size southern city and there's no comparision.


Northern states (from wikipedia)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a6/US_map-North.PNG (broken link)
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Old 05-24-2008, 02:04 PM
 
301 posts, read 996,624 times
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[quote=joe91;3866194]W. Virginia is a border state, in the civil war era and today.- but its mostly northern.
Quote:
Compare Louisville with a same size southern city and there's no comparision.
Here's a good article to read my friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louisvilleslugger View Post
Now honestly, I do see why you’d think it has a Midwestern under-culture, but it is a major city. The same argument, I assure you, can be made of New Orleans, Atlanta, Charleston. Major cities have major immigration, and people from all over the country--and the world--make their homes there. Sad as it is, it has shown its effects on the cities, but I assure you, at Louisville’s core, is the South. It has even been said that during the darkest days of the war, Louisville had more “Johnny Rebs” and “Southern Belles” than the entire state of Mississippi. As an historian, I might be inclined to believe that. Having mentioned Southern Belles, you’d be well advised to note Sallie Ward was a Louisvillian. Her portrait is often named “The Southern Belle.” That is because she was THE Southern Belle in the ante-bellum days. More Scarlett O’Hara than Scarlett herself! Literally, she was considered THE belle of the South! None of that is even mentioning that, as someone else noted, Louisville is a river city, giving it all the more reason to intermingle cultures. Nonetheless, to the trained ear, one can hear the traces of Southern accents in downtown Louisville, and thick as molasses accents among some of the older residence. Step outside the city limits--you can no longer judge the South by its cities. Anyone who lives in a Southern city will note the changes over the years. They’ve become melting pots, good or bad! Oh, and what is Louisville’s nickname? You don’t know? Let me tell you, “Gateway to the South!” That’s a take on its old days as a river port, and its being a Southern city, noted for two great Southern pastimes, horseracing and bourbon!

From a cultural geography perspective the usual northmost line of Southern cultural influences in the lower Midwest is US 40, so it might be more accurate to consider southern Indiana and Illinois more southern than it would to consider Kentucky Midwestern. The Southern Focus study referenced earlier seems to confim the Southern character of Kentucky. About the only part of the state that could be considered Midwestern are the three northern counties across the river from Cincinnati.

Louisville is probably a bit more unusual in that it has aspects that are not traditionally associated with the South. In terms of historical aspects the city was settled by Virginians, and then recieved a large immigration from Germany and Ireland. Unlike other Midwestern cities it did not experience input from the second immigration from southern and eastern Europe to any signifigant degree, and lacks any historical "ethnic neighborhoods" that characterize true Midwestern cities like Dayton or Fort Wayne or South Bend. Louisville has experienced in-migration from the rural areas of central and western Kentucky (the areas directly south and west of the city), which has reinforced its southern character in modern times, which reinforced the southern character of the local working-class.

Louisville was and is industrial, but that is not necessarily a marker of being a Midwestern anomaly in a southern region, as numerous southern cities have an industrial base, such as the textile cities of the Carolina Piedmont. Louisvilles industial development was part of the New South, and marketed to the South, and its leading newspaper editor of the postbellum era, Henry Watterson, was considered an expontent of the New South ideology. During the postbellum era the L&N Railroad, headquarted in Lousiville, was a major carrier into the deep South, terminating at Pensacola and New Orleans, and painted its locomotives "confederate gray".

Another aspect of Louisville that gives it a historical and modern Southern character is the experience of slavery. Louisville did have a large slave population (one of the largest), and slaves were used in industry (44 worked for one company), building trades, steamboat trade, and as household servants. During the Jim Crow era Louisville did segrate blacks and whites into seperate school systems, and event tried to enact ordnances restricting blacks to certain neighborghoods (found unconstitutional by the USSC). One did not see this type of legal Jim Crow elsewhere in the Midwest. Some of the residential patterns of black settlement also paralled other urban south centers. In Midwestern cities blacks settled in older inner city neighborhoods, but in Louisville there was a tendancy for blacks to settle on the urban periphery, originally in Smoketown, but later in neighborhoods like Little Africa (later Park Duvalle) and in the Wet Woods (the Newburgh Road area). This pattern is similar to that identified by Harold Rabinowitz in his "Race Relations in the Urban South", where freed slaves formed settlements on the edges of Southern cities (which is quite visible in Lexington, too).

[IMG]http://www.slaveryinamerica.org/images/slave_census_US_1860_b.jpg
[/IMG]









The aspect of religion as a indicator of southern cultural character is also key as Louisville is a center of the Southern Baptist faith, with a large seminary in town. Baptists vie with Catholics as the largest denomination in the city. You will not find a Midwestern city ouside Missouri (one county in Kansas city) that has a signifigant Baptist population. Louisville however does.



The Bible Belt

If it's worth mentioning Richmond Va (former capitol of the Confederacy) has a larger Catholic population than Louisville. While Texas has always had a large Hispanic Catholic population, the cities of San Antonio and Galveston, Texas were hot beds for German Catholics. It should also be noted that Louisville German and Irish in migration was to a MUCH less degree than St.Louis and Cincinnati, so much less that Louisville's blacks will be the largest ancestry in the city within 2 or 3 years.

Louisville like every other Southern city lost black population during the first black migration North. This is quite the opposite in St.Louis and Cincinnati, in which this played a major role in the building of the cities we see today. St.Louis especially was a hotbed for black migrants, which was the complete opposite for Louisville, being steeped in Southern culture and idealology.

Great Migration resources (http://www.uic.edu/educ/bctpi/greatmigration2/dataviewer/usa/USAleftcolumn.html - broken link)

http://ucdata.berkeley.edu:7101/rsfc.../blkp10_00.gif

Here are two excellent sources showing how Louisville and the South in general held the highest concentration of blacks until the migration.

The physical character of the city is more southern to me. The common vernacular housing of the older pre-WWII city is not like that in other Midwestern cities, where one sees the use of one or two story houses or cottages (sometimes duplex apartments) with the gable end facing the street. Louisville uses the very Southern shotgun house, as well as other forms that are appear to be unique to Louisville, such as a variation on the foursquare. For post WWII building, there was the continued popularity of neoclassical or colonial revival in developer housing. Even the local version of the ranch house sometimes uses wrought iron on the front porches as a sort of generic reference to "New Orleans/River City".

All of the following sources label Louisville and Kentucky as Southern in terms of dialect.













In terms of pop culture, there is that popularity of deep fried fish and seafood, and hush puppies, in local fast food chains. Fairly banal but you dont get hush puppies up north. Ultimatly this is all anecdotal, but from my time in Louisville, compared to Chicago, Louisville is quite southern to me. I really do not see the Midwestern aspect in the city. The place seems to identify more with the South, and feel more southern, than even close-by Midwestern cities like Cincinnati and Indianapolis.

http://www.pfly.net/misc/GeographicMorphology.jpg (broken link)

Here is a cultural map created by this nations most reknown geographer D.W. Meinig. He draws the Southern boudary line through Southern the Southern ares of Indiana, Illinois, and Ohio, So obviously Louisville is safely tucked below that line (not saying that it doesn't have Midwestern influence). If you notice however the only Midwestern cities that remotely compare to Louisville (Cincinnati and St.Louis) are litterally on top of the Southern cultural boundary, obviously suggesting that those cities are heavily influenced by the South. Again I'm aware that Louisville has Midwestern influence, however it does not top the Southern influence.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8d/US_map-South_Modern.png/300px-US_map-South_Modern.png (broken link)

As far as Southern hospitality for a city of over 1.35 million Louisville definantly shows alot of it. This trait doesn't seem to be found in the Midwest.



LOL Just for fun
"Headed for Louisville:" rethinking rural to urban migration in the South, 1930-1950. - Free Online Library

Quote:
Northern states (from wikipedia)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a6/US_map-North.PNG (broken link)


Modern definition The states in dark red are almost always included in modern day definitions of the South, while those in medium red are usually included. Maryland and Missouri are occasionally considered Southern, while Delaware is only rarely considered part of the South. Oklahoma is sometimes considered Southern because the area of Oklahoma, then known as Indian Territory, was allied with the Confederacy. West Virginia is considered Southern by many, because it was once part of Virginia.
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Old 05-25-2008, 05:33 PM
 
Location: south carolina
33 posts, read 78,040 times
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Of course Lousiville seems southern to you because you came from Chicago. All major cities in the south have their northern transplants because their expanding at such high rates. Lousiville might have the most southern culture out of all the midwestern cities, but its a majority midwestern city. I never been to Lousiville, but from its location and my father's point of view was that it was 100% midwestern. None of these graphs mention what each county is in terms of modern "southern" or "northern" culture.

The dark red states are the "deep North" and the striped states are between northern and western, northern and southern cultures.
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Old 05-26-2008, 05:24 PM
 
301 posts, read 996,624 times
Reputation: 163
[quote=joe91;3880181]
Quote:
Of course Lousiville seems southern to you because you came from Chicago.
Chicago....? I used to live in Georgia!

Quote:
All major cities in the south have their northern transplants because their expanding at such high rates.
Louisville also has Northern transplants (mainly from Chicago) who live mostly in eastern Jefferson county.

Quote:
Lousiville might have the most southern culture out of all the midwestern cities, but its a majority midwestern city. I never been to Lousiville, but from its location and my father's point of view was that it was 100% midwestern.
Lol that's a bit of a contradiction don't ya think. You haven't even stepped foot in Lousville, But you've amazingly reached the conclusion that Louisville is Midwestern. Then you state that Louisville is the most Southern of the Midwestern cities while it's still 100% Midwestern. This is ridiculous and I ha no merrit as you've never even stepped foot in Louisville.

Quote:
None of these graphs mention what each county is in terms of modern "southern" or "northern" culture.
So does modern dialect and Baptist demographics mean nothing in terms of modern culture.
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:55 PM
 
Location: south carolina
33 posts, read 78,040 times
Reputation: 33
When I think of Louisville, I think of it located in both Indiana and Kentucky. And Indiana is no doubt a yankee state. Northern transplants in Louisville?!? Is that a joke? All they would have to do is look and they're there.

When someone says there from Louisville, I ask which state.
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