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Old 03-18-2014, 09:55 AM
 
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What about the commission on banker bets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noraft View Post
Ties push. Nobody betting player/banker loses money on ties.
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Old 03-18-2014, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Henderson, NV
5,314 posts, read 5,977,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
What about the commission on banker bets?
5% on banker bet. But in a tie, there is no commission, as there is no winner.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:00 PM
 
9,953 posts, read 8,441,593 times
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What I was trying to point out that each game has something built in that dings a team that tries to play both sides of the game, just to churn bets to earn comps. I misstated that it was the tie, but the banker commission serves the same purpose-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiderman View Post
5% on banker bet. But in a tie, there is no commission, as there is no winner.
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Old 03-28-2014, 12:57 AM
 
322 posts, read 472,469 times
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For low rollers, there are many ways to improve your comp value for your x amount of play, especially on table games.

1. Play at places that will value your level of play. For example, if you are $5 or $10 bet size table game player, don't play at the major LV strip casinos. Most won't even rate your play even if you ask unless you bet at least $25 per hand. But at small locals places, a $25 bet size makes you a high roller worthy of good comps in their eyes.

2. Buy in for more than you likely need and play a few hands at higher stakes than normal when you first sit down. Once the pit critter has watched a few hands, filled out a rating card on you, and pretty much moved on to his duties elsewhere, pull you bet size back down to normal. The extra chips in front of you from the higher buy in helps create an image that you are a bigger bettor on avg even after you cut back. Usually the critter won't bother to change the avg bet size he's already recorded for you, and you'll often get credit for playing the entire session at the higher bet size when you actually only played a few hands that big.

3. Play at full tables and look for dealers that are slow. You'll play less hands per hour, meaning you've put less money in play, but usually get credit for more hands per hour estimated on your rating card.

4. Play during busy times and leave quietly without coloring up while the critters are very busy away from your table (watching a fill at a table on the other end of the pit, handling a dealer error at a far away table, doing a count near shift change, etc). Often the critter won't get around to clocking you out on your rating card for another 30 min or hour due to being so busy.

5. If you are playing at a place that uses RFID chips and automated bet size tracking, sometimes you can discreetly hold an extra chip or two under the table near your bet spot, the sensors will pick those up as part of your bet, and give you credit for betting more than you really are. But don't over do it... for example if you are betting $10, don't hold a purple underneath as that will likely get noticed and corrected.

6. For machine play, always be sure to use your card, make sure the machine recognizes it, and that points are accumulating. Always hunt for promotions like double or triple point days.

7. Some casinos occasionally run promotions that don't even require play, like sign up bonuses or a bonus of some sort just for cashing your paycheck there, as examples.

8. Bookmark all the casino websites of interest and check them around the first of each month for promotions to eliminate a lot of travel to check in person. Most will either have a dedicated promotions link or list upcoming promotions on a calendar page.

9. Be observant and think outside of the box. Casinos are large corporate structured businesses with a very large number of employees and long chains of command. The right hand often doesn't know what the left hand is doing. There are always a certain number of employees that are not competent, not well trained, not motivated, and/or not well supervised. Often casinos offer promotions without thoroughly thinking the terms and structure through in advance and have loopholes in the promo that can be used to your additional advantage. All of this creates opportunities.

The casinos offer some promos knowing in advance that the potential for abuse is there, but they know it's a form of "loss leader" strategy the same as a convenience store offering a gallon of milk exceptionally cheap just to get you in the door. They know a few will come in, buy the milk only, and leave, but most will buy several other things while they're there. If a casino offers a free meal just for cashing your paycheck there, they know and willingly accept that maybe 1% will take the free meal and leave, costing the casino money on those customers, but they also know 99% will give them some gaming business while they are there, some of those will become regular future customers, and some will even become gambling addicts. Your job is to be in the disciplined 1% group.
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Old 03-28-2014, 07:05 PM
 
2,305 posts, read 3,797,960 times
Reputation: 1237
Quote:
Originally Posted by LV2ndHome View Post
For low rollers, there are many ways to improve your comp value for your x amount of play, especially on table games.

1. Play at places that will value your level of play. For example, if you are $5 or $10 bet size table game player, don't play at the major LV strip casinos. Most won't even rate your play even if you ask unless you bet at least $25 per hand. But at small locals places, a $25 bet size makes you a high roller worthy of good comps in their eyes.

2. Buy in for more than you likely need and play a few hands at higher stakes than normal when you first sit down. Once the pit critter has watched a few hands, filled out a rating card on you, and pretty much moved on to his duties elsewhere, pull you bet size back down to normal. The extra chips in front of you from the higher buy in helps create an image that you are a bigger bettor on avg even after you cut back. Usually the critter won't bother to change the avg bet size he's already recorded for you, and you'll often get credit for playing the entire session at the higher bet size when you actually only played a few hands that big.

3. Play at full tables and look for dealers that are slow. You'll play less hands per hour, meaning you've put less money in play, but usually get credit for more hands per hour estimated on your rating card.

4. Play during busy times and leave quietly without coloring up while the critters are very busy away from your table (watching a fill at a table on the other end of the pit, handling a dealer error at a far away table, doing a count near shift change, etc). Often the critter won't get around to clocking you out on your rating card for another 30 min or hour due to being so busy.

5. If you are playing at a place that uses RFID chips and automated bet size tracking, sometimes you can discreetly hold an extra chip or two under the table near your bet spot, the sensors will pick those up as part of your bet, and give you credit for betting more than you really are. But don't over do it... for example if you are betting $10, don't hold a purple underneath as that will likely get noticed and corrected.

6. For machine play, always be sure to use your card, make sure the machine recognizes it, and that points are accumulating. Always hunt for promotions like double or triple point days.

7. Some casinos occasionally run promotions that don't even require play, like sign up bonuses or a bonus of some sort just for cashing your paycheck there, as examples.

8. Bookmark all the casino websites of interest and check them around the first of each month for promotions to eliminate a lot of travel to check in person. Most will either have a dedicated promotions link or list upcoming promotions on a calendar page.

9. Be observant and think outside of the box. Casinos are large corporate structured businesses with a very large number of employees and long chains of command. The right hand often doesn't know what the left hand is doing. There are always a certain number of employees that are not competent, not well trained, not motivated, and/or not well supervised. Often casinos offer promotions without thoroughly thinking the terms and structure through in advance and have loopholes in the promo that can be used to your additional advantage. All of this creates opportunities.

The casinos offer some promos knowing in advance that the potential for abuse is there, but they know it's a form of "loss leader" strategy the same as a convenience store offering a gallon of milk exceptionally cheap just to get you in the door. They know a few will come in, buy the milk only, and leave, but most will buy several other things while they're there. If a casino offers a free meal just for cashing your paycheck there, they know and willingly accept that maybe 1% will take the free meal and leave, costing the casino money on those customers, but they also know 99% will give them some gaming business while they are there, some of those will become regular future customers, and some will even become gambling addicts. Your job is to be in the disciplined 1% group.

1. Totally agree. Boyd properties give good comps for minimal play.

2. Any decent Floor Person is just going to put in your time in and buy in on the rating slip and calculate average bet from the highest to lowest wager they observed at the end your play. If anything looks funny when the ACSM or CSM signs off on it. They will have it verified with the video coverage.

3. Dealers are monitored through pace audits. Players make the pace anyways. If you want a slow game then slow it down yourself.


4. If the Floor Person loses track. The dealer or surveillance will fill in the missing picture of what time you walked, how much including what you rat holed.

5. I don't think so but keep believing it if it helps you sleep better at night.

6,7,8 are all logical and good advice.

9. Cant agree more. We have a lot of smart cookies that nothing gets past them and goof balls that work off emotion instead of logic.
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Old 03-29-2014, 03:41 AM
 
322 posts, read 472,469 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojavedxer View Post
2. Any decent Floor Person is just going to put in your time in and buy in on the rating slip and calculate average bet from the highest to lowest wager they observed at the end your play. If anything looks funny when the ACSM or CSM signs off on it. They will have it verified with the video coverage.
We're talking low stakes players trying to snag a few extra soft comps and maybe generate small freeplay or matchplay coupon in the mail. A CSM/ACSM and the eye has better things to do than review tapes trying to determine if a $10 or $15 avg bet rating really should have been $5, and such low end play is not even observed closely in live time by the pit critters. But for the low roller, if he can get rated at $10 to $15 when it should be $5, that a huge difference percentage wise, being 2x-3x his actual play, and is still huge even if the ploy only works part of the time.

I've monitored some of my play in the past, even getting printouts of my avg bet size, avg time, theos, actuals, etc, and even at high stakes the ratings over numerous similar sessions end up being reported all over the place. I've made plays such that numerous team members went in and all made the exact same $1000 flat bet for an hour play, and the ratings for each player ended up all over the map. Obviously nobody is monitoring to see that the ratings are entered accurately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojavedxer View Post
3. Dealers are monitored through pace audits. Players make the pace anyways. If you want a slow game then slow it down yourself.
Players are part of the pace (gawd I hate the slow card squeezers on hand held games when I'm trying to get a fast game, and yes I have deliberately slowed games as a player in situations that a slow game is preferred), but some dealers are clearly much faster than others and contribute a lot to the pace as well. Plus players tend to come and go, but the dealer remains for the whole shift (unless the place has a rubber band table rotation).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojavedxer View Post
4. If the Floor Person loses track. The dealer or surveillance will fill in the missing picture of what time you walked, how much including what you rat holed.
I've seen the situation happen a zillion times over the years. A low stakes player leaves unnoticed, and the critter asks the dealer how long ago the player left and how much did he leave with. They seldom get it right, the critter immediately puts his best guess on the rating card, it's virtually always more than the actual play, and the critter never goes to the phone to ask the eye. Again we are talking low stakes not worth the casinos effort to track more precisely, personnel that are often not highly competent and motivated, and they'd rather give the player credit for a little more time than have to deal with his complaint a little later on that he got shorted and contending that he does actually have enough time in to qualify for a free buffet. In short, players will complain if they get shorted, but no one is going to complain or get written up for giving a redchipper a little more time or a slightly higher avg bet size rating than he actually deserved as it's such a petty issue to the casino.

I once was putting in 4 hrs of rated play to qualify to receive a $3000 gift card offer. I didn't want to play the game aggressively to prevent getting made and tossed out as an AP before qualifying since the promo was worth $750/hr, so essentially I was flat betting $100 and only making about $25/hr EV at the table to get my time in. I planned to break the 4 hrs up into several sessions, playing at busy times and leaving quietly without coloring up. After each session, I'd wait until the next shift and then check on how much time they had given me. I received credit for more time than I actually played on every session and I qualified for the gift card after only 3 hrs of total actual play, so it sometimes works even at blackchip levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojavedxer View Post
5. I don't think so but keep believing it if it helps you sleep better at night.
I can't say it works every time, but I know for a fact it often does. I've done it while sitting at first or third base right beside the computer screen and watched my bets being auto entered on the screen. As an experiment, I once even noted the system logged a bet that was more than the table max and didn't issue any automatic alert. But obviously I can't always get a view of the screen to verify it's getting logged in all cases, and some tables have modesty panels or braces underneath that make it hard to hold an extra chip close enough to your betting spot. Sometimes you can do it on some betting spots but not others due to the location of angular braces under the table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojavedxer View Post
9. Cant agree more. We have a lot of smart cookies that nothing gets past them and goof balls that work off emotion instead of logic.
There are some that are extremely sharp and work as if it's their own personal money they're watching over instead of the casino's money. But they are few and far between, and I would definitely say it's more like a few smart cookies than a lot. I'm sure there's some additional ones that are smart but just don't care and aren't motivated or supervised well enough to make a decent effort. It never ceases to amaze me at the continual amount of errors and obvious stuff even at high stakes that isn't caught, and it happens at all casinos. I'm also amazed that surveillance positions, in being so important for reducing the risk exposure and very critical in protecting the casino's bottom line, are generally among the lower payscales.
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Old 03-29-2014, 07:13 PM
 
2,305 posts, read 3,797,960 times
Reputation: 1237
"We're talking low stakes players trying to snag a few extra soft comps and maybe generate small freeplay or matchplay coupon in the mail. A CSM/ACSM and the eye has better things to do than review tapes trying to determine if a $10 or $15 avg bet rating really should have been $5, and such low end play is not even observed closely in live time by the pit critters. But for the low roller, if he can get rated at $10 to $15 when it should be $5, that a huge difference percentage wise, being 2x-3x his actual play, and is still huge even if the ploy only works part of the time.

I've monitored some of my play in the past, even getting printouts of my avg bet size, avg time, theos, actuals, etc, and even at high stakes the ratings over numerous similar sessions end up being reported all over the place. I've made plays such that numerous team members went in and all made the exact same $1000 flat bet for an hour play, and the ratings for each player ended up all over the map. Obviously nobody is monitoring to see that the ratings are entered accurately."


There is such a thing as a rating audit. Dealers have to deal game pace. Floor People have to deal with rating and customer service audits. A CSM does not have go look at video. Just make a call and get an answer later on.


"There are some that are extremely sharp and work as if it's their own personal money they're watching over instead of the casino's money. But they are few and far between, and I would definitely say it's more like a few smart cookies than a lot. I'm sure there's some additional ones that are smart but just don't care and aren't motivated or supervised well enough to make a decent effort. It never ceases to amaze me at the continual amount of errors and obvious stuff even at high stakes that isn't caught, and it happens at all casinos. I'm also amazed that surveillance positions, in being so important for reducing the risk exposure and very critical in protecting the casino's bottom line, are generally among the lower payscales."

I'm not going to say that any joint in town has got it all right because that would not be true. A lot of communication problems, ego' poor judgment causes issues. The bottom line is the profitability. . We have a pretty good intelligence network letting us know what's going on from the inside. Besides picking off hole card play, most AP rackets are pretty benign in nature and don't hurt the bottom line too much. Pay scales are dependent on each properties requirements for surveillance. Most off strip properties surveillance department deal more with Security and Risk Management hence the low pay scale. Strip properties pay accordingly to your experience and reputation in the industry.
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Old 04-10-2014, 03:34 AM
 
654 posts, read 1,096,257 times
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Good info both from LV2ndHome & Mojavedxer ...

They covered most of the crucial stuff but a couple things to add ...

If you happen to play poker (even low stakes), you're playing against other players instead of the house. The casino makes their money by taking a percentage of each pot (generally speaking - sometimes a gradual rake & sometimes they charge time every 1/2 hr in bigger games). A competent, thinking, tight (conservative) player can beat the smaller games - maybe not for a lot, but winning nonetheless. You get to have fun & earn comps, often between $1-2/hr. Venetian & Wynn, for example, both offer $2/hr in comps which can be used at a large number of restaurants including my current favorite (Grand Lux Cafe).

Also, likely more important to most people here - take time to learn the priorities of the casino(s) at which you play. Caesars (Rio, Planet Hollywood, Paris, Harrahs, etc) is big on Average Daily Theoretical (ADT). What does this mean to the average player? If you're here for 5 days & willing to risk $1000, do it all in one day rather than $200 each of 5 days. Goof off & have fun the rest of the time. You'll be rated FAR better in their system than if you spread out your play. They want to know what their hold is if they get you to gamble as much as possible, so do it all in one day if you can. If you play penny slots a 2nd day for a short while, don't use your card - you'll wreck your ADT.

Case in point: A couple years ago a buddy called me & asked if I wanted to join in a slot play opportunity. Generally, I don't play slots but this was a +EV (positive expectation) play so I said I'd take 25% of the action. Ultimately, even though we had an expectation to make money, we lost $700-800 because it took several hours to hit the machine jackpot. (Worst case scenario.) My portion of the loss was just under $200. He had a backer for 50%, he & I took turns using our card in the machine. Even though we lost, because of the volume of play we put in on what looked like a tight (poor payback) machine, I started getting all kinds of offers - food comps, free play, room offers, slot tourneys, etc. Even though the loss was close to $200, the comps generated were well over $1000, maybe close to $2000 (couldn't claim them all, tho). This was all because of how Caesars ranks you by ADT - it was the first significant play they'd seen from me in a while & I'm sure I looked like a crazy gambler.

Variations of this may be true with other casinos. Take time to learn; it may be worth your while.
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