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Old 01-17-2011, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
584 posts, read 722,787 times
Reputation: 555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastrudy View Post
Judges have lifetime tenure. You can read about the benefits of tenure here:

Tenure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Doctors can have their licenses revoked if they don't meet medical standards, restaurants can be shut down over health concerns, contractors can lose their licenses over repeated code violations. The list goes on. Why should inept teachers be exempt from losing their job solely because they put their time in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brosati View Post
Surely you can't be serious! Do you have any idea of the time and expense involved in earning a Master's degree?

Why would anyone in their right mind spend 6 years in college knowing that the most they could hope to earn as a result of all that work is 44k a year?
If one expects to get rich as a teacher, they obviously never researched the career field. One should only enter the teaching profession if they truly have a passion for teaching our youth. While they should make a living wage, money should not be the main motivational factor. These pay scales have been in place for years and should come as no surprise.
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Old 01-17-2011, 11:10 AM
 
458 posts, read 898,712 times
Reputation: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastrudy View Post
Judges have lifetime tenure. You can read about the benefits of tenure here:

Tenure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Interesting, and I think useful for certain positions. But NOT, in my opinion, for elementary school teachers, high school teachers, and professors who aren't in scientific fields. This coming from someone who had one too many Elementary Education professors who didn't care about how they taught because they had tenure and could cruise by being as sloppy as they wanted.

From the article: "Academic tenure is primarily intended to guarantee the right to academic freedom: it protects teachers and researchers when they dissent from prevailing opinion, openly disagree with authorities of any sort, or spend time on unfashionable topics."

I don't see how that applies to the public school system (before college). I maintain that grade school and high school teachers should not have tenure.
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Old 01-17-2011, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
2,614 posts, read 2,090,718 times
Reputation: 2046
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trash Can View Post
... what do you propose to do with those whose performance is less than stellar year after year? ...
In the private sector, I've worked in several companies that handle this quite well. It is called "Ranking & Rating." Managers of the employees write up, together with the employee and feedback from several sources, the employees performance over the past year together with areas for improvement. Then, managers at the same level compare their employees using these write-ups -- and the employees are ranked from top to bottom. The top employees get the best raises and perhaps promotions, the bottom employees get warnings with no raise or a salary reduction (or, if they have been in the bottom two years in a row or 3 out of 5, they get fired).

It turns out it is pretty easy. The top 10-15 % are always easily identified. The bottom 10-15% are also easy. It is hardest in the middle.

This happens at every level in the company: the managers themselves are ranked & rated all the way up to the CEO.

While this might not be as practical among school teachers and administrators, I don't see a reason that something like this cannot be adopted for school teachers. Imagine comparing, say, all 4th grade teachers across the district... or all 8th grade math teachers, etc.

It is also fairly easy to put in place safeguards - for example to prevent something illegal such as firing all protected minorities, or to prevent retribution, etc.
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Old 01-17-2011, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
2,614 posts, read 2,090,718 times
Reputation: 2046
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Jr. View Post
What about the stupid parents ... When will they be held accountable?
By whom?

The idea of holding teachers accountable stems from the notion that public employees must be held responsible to their employers, the People.

Your rhetorical question about holding stupid parents accountable implies that either (1) it should be against the law to be both stupid and a parent, or (2) the state has a compelling interest to intervene in the private affairs of parents and their children.

I'm not sure either of those are where we want to go as a society. Your point is valid, however, that among a significantly large population such as Clark County (~ 1.8 Million), by definition, a large fraction of parents are going to be in the bottom 10%. About 10% of them, in fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Jr. View Post
... Many of these teachers struggle because of these students. How can you tie a teachers career to a test that many students could care less about, who play dot to dot with, and who can really get back at a teacher who they pervieve as hard and don't like the work the teacher was mandated to give. Furthermore, the lower the test score, the more god damn boring worksheets and test prep they give. Yeah, that will make the kids want to learn!
The answer, of course, is not to identify the bottom 10% of teachers who should get strong corrective action messages from the test. The test must be one factor, of course, but it is not that difficult to identify bad teachers and to identify stellar teachers. They are the ones who should either be terminated/encouraged to leave or receive outsize pay increases.

It is called "management."
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Old 01-17-2011, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
233 posts, read 593,331 times
Reputation: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trash Can View Post
One should only enter the teaching profession if they truly have a passion for teaching our youth. While they should make a living wage, money should not be the main motivational factor.
I wonder how many good doctors, lawyers, sports professionals, and actors there would be if passion were their main motivational factor?

We're not talking about teachers making huge salaries like those professionals; but I for one, feel that our best teachers deserve to make more than 44k a year!

Passion is indeed important, but if we want to improve our educational standards, we need to be able to attract top notch teachers here in Clark County. If I were a passionate teacher, would I want to work in Clark County for 44k a year, or elsewhere where I could expect to make a little more?

And as far a tenure goes, we need to weed out the bad teachers before they gain tenure status. Maybe gaining tenure status should be a reward based on performance, and not something granted simply because one belongs to and is protected by a union.
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Old 01-17-2011, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
584 posts, read 722,787 times
Reputation: 555
Quote:
Originally Posted by brosati View Post
I wonder how many good doctors, lawyers, sports professionals, and actors there would be if passion were their main motivational factor?
I know what you are saying, but I don't understand how people can complain about their salary when they knowingly entered a career field that historically has not paid well.

Quote:
We're not talking about teachers making huge salaries like those professionals; but I for one, feel that our best teachers deserve to make more than 44k a year!
The best should receive bonus or merit pay. Those at the other end of the scale.... get rid of them.
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Old 01-17-2011, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
2,035 posts, read 1,933,009 times
Reputation: 1590
Quote:
Originally Posted by brosati View Post
Surely you can't be serious! Do you have any idea of the time and expense involved in earning a Master's degree?

Why would anyone in their right mind spend 6 years in college knowing that the most they could hope to earn as a result of all that work is 44k a year?
Yes, I do. They do it because it's common knowledge that both teaching and social work have lower compensation and they believe in what they're doing. Life does not revolve around money and to those who think it does, they usually find out one way or another how money is only a small piece of the puzzle.

I can agree with you that their pay should ideally be on par with other areas but we are currently experiencing very difficult economics in the budget. If anything, they are probably looking at cutting the pay of teachers and other employees.

Generally, I think our education system needs a serious overhaul in an array of ways. Creating educational guidelines that revolve around memorization and regurgitation only attracts teachers with no passion and leaves the kids thinking it's a joke. Which it is.
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Old 01-17-2011, 12:20 PM
 
815 posts, read 1,045,552 times
Reputation: 502
From the article: "Academic tenure is primarily intended to guarantee the right to academic freedom: it protects teachers and researchers when they dissent from prevailing opinion, openly disagree with authorities of any sort, or spend time on unfashionable topics."

I don't see how that applies to the public school system (before college). I maintain that grade school and high school teachers should not have tenure.

Every few years somebody invents a "new method" of teaching (phonetics, new math, fusion, mini-courses, portfolio). If the whole school had untenured teachers, they would be forced to practice this new method (esp. if an administrators merit pay depended on it) and discard an old method that may have worked well for them. Tenured teachers can say, "No, I will continue with my method of teaching.", without fear of retribution.
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Old 01-17-2011, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
584 posts, read 722,787 times
Reputation: 555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastrudy View Post
Every few years somebody invents a "new method" of teaching (phonetics, new math, fusion, mini-courses, portfolio). If the whole school had untenured teachers, they would be forced to practice this new method (esp. if an administrators merit pay depended on it) and discard an old method that may have worked well for them. Tenured teachers can say, "No, I will continue with my method of teaching.", without fear of retribution.
This is the crux of the problem. Bad teachers can continue to do their thing without fear of retribution.
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:31 PM
 
815 posts, read 1,045,552 times
Reputation: 502
Most teachers who are awarded tenure have demonstrated that their method works for them. If a teacher who does not have good rapport/results is awarded tenure one must question how this happened. Most tenured teachers get the award (tenure) because they deserve it, ie., they have demonstrated a knowledge of the subject matter, a working method of teaching it, a rapport with students, staff and parents and a passion for teaching. There are mechanisms in place to re-train tenured teachers if their performance falls. The assignment of college-level classes vs. general classes can be tweaked if a tenured teacher's performance starts to fall. The percentage of 'bad' tenured teachers is very small.
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