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Old 02-11-2012, 06:25 PM
 
322 posts, read 255,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by las vegas drunk View Post
I am just curious as to what game(s) you play?
I currently make a wide variety of advantage plays. I play most of the table games, make some machine plays, play in various tourneys, and do promo plays. Basically I try to think outside the box and look for anything where I can get a legal mathematical edge.

Casinos are mostly large corporate structure, meaning there are usually a lot of employees, long chains of command, and thus it is impossible to have all of them highly qualified, trained, motivated, and supervised. In this kind of environment there is always opportunity stemming from corporate inefficiency. There is always personnel turnover as a disruption, somebody in mgmt always fails to think some things through in establishing procedure or say in designing a promo, or someone gets sloppy with procedure, makes a human error, or unexpectedly doesn't show up, meaning someone poorly trained for that particular job might be assigned to fill in temporarily. The possibilities for opportunity are almost endless.

I started my AP career playing blackjack as a card counter at very low stakes (a very common entry level play for beginner APs) and gradually worked my way up. But I quit card counting many years ago. Card counting still works today, but it's a grind game that's too much hassle for not enough money for my appetite. I now spend much more of my time scouting for more lucrative opportunities and less time actually playing, but I make a lot more money and with less risk compared to card counting.

I have read a lot of books on poker, actually have played just a little at very low stakes just to get my feet wet, and will likely add poker to my arsenal of plays to a serious degree in the future. I like new challenges, and poker will likely be one of my next ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macgeek View Post
You can be Brad Pitt married to Angelina Jolie, but you still have to wake up every morning and go to work, no matter what job it is, its still just a job.

Jonathan
I realize I previously sounded more negative than I intended. As I did initially state, AP is a job that I generally enjoy. I do like that I have a lot more scheduling flexibility than I would if working for da man. I like the challenge and feeling of accomplishment in finding ways to legally beat the casinos at their own game right under their noses. I can choose the direction I want to take my business and abandon one type of play in favor of another, and select the specific plays I make. I network and have become close friends with some of the brightest and most trustworthy people I've ever met. In what other business can you hand over several bricks of benji's to someone you've never met before and let him walk away with nothing more than a handshake, trusting him to show back up with your money on cue to make a play, and not being worried about it in the least simply because a trusted mutual friend vouched for him? That's pretty cool in my book.

I've also realized there is a lot of similarity in AP and many other jobs/businesses, and my opinions and work structure are not necessarily representative of the entire AP community as a whole. As with all businesses, some people generally like their job and some don't. Most start out at the bottom, and from there some quit, some stay at that entry level position, and some advance by developing networks with others in the field, taking the initiative to figure things for themselves through on-the-job experience, and additional education from researching published reference material, etc. Some are willing to put in the hours to advance, and some have no desire to work any more than necessary to get by. Some have the desire and willingness to advance, but are lacking in ability, and some others have ability but lack willingness to make the required efforts.
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Old 02-11-2012, 08:08 PM
 
322 posts, read 255,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
Thank you for expanding on this. I'm not a pro, so I didn't have all the details handy.

The one thing about the CTRs and SARs is that I'm sure they're available to the IRS, and the use them in their computer matches when processing returns. It sounds like you have all your ducks in a row when filing your returns, so you don't have problems.

However, most non-pros, and I bet even some pros, don't declare their winnings. If they're getting CTRs, but don't show any income on their returns that account for them, I have to think it increase their chances of getting flagged for an audit.

BTW, are/were you advantage playing VP? Is that still viable? Since the recession, I've heard that the casinos have been squeezing out the beatable machines.
I believe CTRs are filed with the IRS and SARs are filed with FinCEN. I don't know for sure, but I really think they have very little if anything to do with your chances of a tax return audit. Again, they are only cash transaction reports, not income earning reports. And a big problem is the $10k threshold was established many years ago (around 1970 I think) and has not been updated. Due to inflation, that was a lot more money than it is today in buying power.

A problem many pros often have (including me) is that the casino requires ID for a CTR, we aren't welcome under our real name, so we don't want the casino to know who we really are, but we certainly don't want to show a fake ID and risk serious criminal charges for falsifying a federal report. There are ways to work around this problem that I prefer not to discuss that allow us to have access to more than $10k in a day and yet not break any laws. But also note that "structuring" is a crime, which is structuring transactions in deliberate manner to avoid CTRs.

I suspect some recreational players or part-time "pros" may not report their gaming income, but competent, full-time pros playing for serious stakes almost have to report it, or at least most of it. Think about it... if you win at least well into 6 figures year after year, what are you going to spend it on that doesn't have a paper trail or won't show up in some obvious manner? Real Estate has recorded deeds & property tax records, vehicles have titles and registrations, etc. If you travel far you need a passport and customs declarations. Do you think living a somewhat lavish lifestyle while reporting very little income on your tax return won't be noticed if you are audited? What good is a lock box packed full of cash if you can't spend it due to fear of tax evasion charges?

VP can be viable in some cases. By itself as intended, it's close to a breakeven game if you carefully shop for machines with the best pay tables. This can be a good play for someone like Mac's friend primarily looking for cheap recreational play, but generally not good for someone like me primarily interested in making serious money.

But it still has a place at times for me. Say I get a $500 freeplay offer in the mail, I'll play it off on VP. Or the casino may run some other type of promotion that fits well with VP play. If I see a new bank of machines being installed, or old ones being worked on, I'll check the pay tables once they're up and running to see if the slot techs made an error in setting up the payouts. If they made a set up config error, that can be quite lucrative, and with so many VP game variations offered, a mistake is easy for them to make. VP can also sometimes be used to provide some "cover" for table play at little cost. When a pit critter checks you in at a table game and sees on your account that you also play machines, they are sometimes less suspicious of you.
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
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Whoa..... A $500 free play offer. I could have fun on that for weeks!
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:54 PM
 
322 posts, read 255,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pommysmommy View Post
I think a casino hotel would only boot a gambler out of a room in the wee hours of the morning because security suspected the gambler was counting cards.
I haven't counted cards in years, but you are correct in that they tossed me simply because they figured out I was not a profitable customer. I had done nothing illegal and created no disturbance or damage. They can monitor the electronic locks and know when you enter the room, then send up the posse to get you.

I suspect the reason for this approach is for several reasons. One is casinos don't like the desirable [sucker] customers seeing that the casino is a sore loser. I'm playing their game by their rules, have done absolutely nothing illegal, but they don't want my business simply because I have won. That doesn't display the casino in a favorable light if they come get me off the gaming floor in front of the other customers, so they do it more out of view of the public. Casino personnel, especially security guards, often get overzealous, and they may not want as many witnesses in case my civil rights are violated. And finally, I think it may be done to some degree simply out of spite.

I believe the situation is getting better in LV though. My understanding is this practice is breaking NV innkeeper laws and a breach of contract by kicking you out without cause. I believe a prominent LV attorney focused on protecting the civil rights of APs, Bob Nersesian, has started going after some casinos recently for this and has won some settlements. Bob has won literally millions from casinos for APs over the years for much more serious acts involving criminal and civil rights violations (false arrests, assault & battery, falsifying evidence, perjury, etc).

Bob wrote a good book on Nevada gaming law, common casino abuses, and some of the cases he's won against casinos. It can be found at Amazon.com: Beat the Players: Casinos, Cops And the Game Inside the Game (9780935926286): Bob Nersesian: Books.

My hotel evictions were not in LV however. I have been 86'd from several LV casinos (some more than once), but not from LV hotel rooms.

I'm sure some will side with me and some will side with the casinos on this, arguing they have every right to toss me out and perhaps even that I had it coming or was asking for it. I will say that I fully agree with a casino's right to decline my future business. If I were them I wouldn't want my business either and I have absolutely no problem with them telling me to stay off the gaming floor immediately, and to leave the property completely once the contract period on my hotel room is over. A lot of casinos handle the situation as they should in a highly respectable manner. My only problem is with the few casinos that choose to cross the line without just cause and violate the AP's civil rights and/or even commit criminal acts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HSV2LAS View Post
That's why I never play and sleep at the same place if it is Black Jack that I was playing. For example, I get a room with MGM then I play at CET property and vice versa. This way they wouldn't know where I stay. I just cash out and disappear in thin air.
Sometimes you don't have a choice in small venues. And it is of very limited help in big venues like LV for high stakes play. Once a casino determines you are a serious financial threat, they will flyer your picture and all the info they have on you to most all of the other area casinos (an AP won't likely get flyered for small stakes play and he can better stay under the radar at many places, but obviously he doesn't make near as much money at smaller stakes either). If you get tossed and flyered from a CET casino, there's a good chance MGM will toss you from the flyer. And what really sucks is if you got tossed as "Joe" at CET and you are staying as "Fred" at MGM, and they ID you from the flyer picture. Now they know Joe = Fred and you have lost 2 players accounts instead of one. Once you are flyered, usually your best bet is to hide out for a few hours, change your look, and then go grab your stuff quickly and terminate the trip. The flyers will get buried under a pile fairly quickly and memories faded while you are playing other venues, and you are good to go under a different name within a few weeks.

Also it is generally a mistake to cash out after being told you are no longer welcome. When they do the deed, gather your chips and hit the door. Cameras at the cage are lower, often of better quality, and can provide them with a much better quality, near head on shot for their "mug book". Also they will often demand you produce ID to cash out, even making up phantom laws that they say require it. MGM is notorious for confiscating chips without just cause simply because you are no longer a desirable customer. At best you will have to contact Gaming to make them pay. Depending on the circumstances you might even have to get an attorney involved. All of this can be avoided by simply leaving with the chips and cashing them out at a later date, a little at a time if necessary.
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Old 02-11-2012, 11:06 PM
 
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Thanks for more helpful info. I think I have learned more in one day reading the following this thread than I have learned in one year.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:50 AM
 
1,639 posts, read 2,136,817 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LV2ndHome View Post
I haven't counted cards in years, but you are correct in that they tossed me simply because they figured out I was not a profitable customer. I had done nothing illegal and created no disturbance or damage. They can monitor the electronic locks and know when you enter the room, then send up the posse to get you.

I suspect the reason for this approach is for several reasons. One is casinos don't like the desirable [sucker] customers seeing that the casino is a sore loser. I'm playing their game by their rules, have done absolutely nothing illegal, but they don't want my business simply because I have won. That doesn't display the casino in a favorable light if they come get me off the gaming floor in front of the other customers, so they do it more out of view of the public. Casino personnel, especially security guards, often get overzealous, and they may not want as many witnesses in case my civil rights are violated. And finally, I think it may be done to some degree simply out of spite.

I believe the situation is getting better in LV though. My understanding is this practice is breaking NV innkeeper laws and a breach of contract by kicking you out without cause. I believe a prominent LV attorney focused on protecting the civil rights of APs, Bob Nersesian, has started going after some casinos recently for this and has won some settlements. Bob has won literally millions from casinos for APs over the years for much more serious acts involving criminal and civil rights violations (false arrests, assault & battery, falsifying evidence, perjury, etc).

Bob wrote a good book on Nevada gaming law, common casino abuses, and some of the cases he's won against casinos. It can be found at Amazon.com: Beat the Players: Casinos, Cops And the Game Inside the Game (9780935926286): Bob Nersesian: Books.

My hotel evictions were not in LV however. I have been 86'd from several LV casinos (some more than once), but not from LV hotel rooms.

I'm sure some will side with me and some will side with the casinos on this, arguing they have every right to toss me out and perhaps even that I had it coming or was asking for it. I will say that I fully agree with a casino's right to decline my future business. If I were them I wouldn't want my business either and I have absolutely no problem with them telling me to stay off the gaming floor immediately, and to leave the property completely once the contract period on my hotel room is over. A lot of casinos handle the situation as they should in a highly respectable manner. My only problem is with the few casinos that choose to cross the line without just cause and violate the AP's civil rights and/or even commit criminal acts.



Sometimes you don't have a choice in small venues. And it is of very limited help in big venues like LV for high stakes play. Once a casino determines you are a serious financial threat, they will flyer your picture and all the info they have on you to most all of the other area casinos (an AP won't likely get flyered for small stakes play and he can better stay under the radar at many places, but obviously he doesn't make near as much money at smaller stakes either). If you get tossed and flyered from a CET casino, there's a good chance MGM will toss you from the flyer. And what really sucks is if you got tossed as "Joe" at CET and you are staying as "Fred" at MGM, and they ID you from the flyer picture. Now they know Joe = Fred and you have lost 2 players accounts instead of one. Once you are flyered, usually your best bet is to hide out for a few hours, change your look, and then go grab your stuff quickly and terminate the trip. The flyers will get buried under a pile fairly quickly and memories faded while you are playing other venues, and you are good to go under a different name within a few weeks.

Also it is generally a mistake to cash out after being told you are no longer welcome. When they do the deed, gather your chips and hit the door. Cameras at the cage are lower, often of better quality, and can provide them with a much better quality, near head on shot for their "mug book". Also they will often demand you produce ID to cash out, even making up phantom laws that they say require it. MGM is notorious for confiscating chips without just cause simply because you are no longer a desirable customer. At best you will have to contact Gaming to make them pay. Depending on the circumstances you might even have to get an attorney involved. All of this can be avoided by simply leaving with the chips and cashing them out at a later date, a little at a time if necessary.
If you were going to be backed off a game. They already have your photo before the pit even backs you off. The PTZ's in the pit can nail down a photo and ID the blackheads on your face and neck. I get email alerts from some properties less than an hour when the patron was backed off. Also I would not consider you an AP. AP traditionally are card counters and spotters that recognize dealers with poor game protection and use it to their advantage. You would be considered a unprofitable player. Something I have doing for the last 20 years also.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:55 AM
 
Location: Vegas, baby, Vegas!
3,158 posts, read 3,328,375 times
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Originally Posted by yellowsnow View Post
Whoa..... A $500 free play offer. I could have fun on that for weeks!
My friend gets them all the time, she like LV2ndhome does, checks into the room (its comped) and plays the free play, never even steps into the room.

If they give you a offer for Biloxi or New Orleans, its more like $1000 in free play, and airfare (Ceasers is good at that for A/P)

Jonathan
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:34 AM
 
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I don't gamble at all but from what I am reading here you are saying that if you become a professional gambler and make any decent money, the casino tosses you out and will not allow you to play there??? To me that is just another reason to never start gambling. It appears that to do so ensures you should just hand your cash over to the casino and leave, because to do anything else will just get you booted anyway.
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:06 PM
 
322 posts, read 255,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojavedxer View Post
If you were going to be backed off a game. They already have your photo before the pit even backs you off. The PTZ's in the pit can nail down a photo and ID the blackheads on your face and neck. I get email alerts from some properties less than an hour when the patron was backed off. Also I would not consider you an AP. AP traditionally are card counters and spotters that recognize dealers with poor game protection and use it to their advantage. You would be considered a unprofitable player. Something I have doing for the last 20 years also.
I'm well aware of the camera/picture qualities in some places. I've seen SIN, OSN, some local network sharing (small venue), and the old Griffin flyers. The quality of the camera does not change the angle of the shot. It's easy to tell which ones were taken from above and which were taken from more head on. It's not hard to get a good picture, even from above, when the person makes no effort to prevent it, and most people don't. Also not all properties have as good of cameras as the major LV casinos. I know one rural casino that didn't even have color cameras (except for one over the roulette wheel) until a couple years ago. Some flyers are extremely good quality, some are extremely poor, all depending on the originating casino.

All that said, avoiding the cage after a back off or 86 is much more to avoid potential hassles over chip cashing, ID demands, and overzealous guards. I don't really worry much about having my picture taken, though I don't deliberately make it easy for them to get a good one. I change my look up as needed and haven't had substantial trouble going back to places, even the major LV strip casinos with FRS. Major LV strip casinos can't even successfully keep out such long time high profile players like Tommy Hyland, James Grosjean, et al. I believe you have indicated in the past that you work at Caesars, so I assume you have heard of Grosjean.

I have been deliberately vague about specific plays I currently make. The comp/promo hustles are a very small part of what I do today and is only the gravy of my current play, not the meat and potatoes. I assure you that you have not been doing for "the last 20 yrs" what I currently do. If you were, you would not be working for Da Man when you could be spending that time out making many times as much or comfortably retired by now. In LV, I usually don't even bother sitting at games with an EV of a few hundred dollars/hr any more as I figure my time is better spent scouting for something better. I might sit at a game worth a couple of hundred/hr for maybe an hour if my feet are aching and I need a break or if I want to get a little history on a new player's card.

Of course it's different in small venues, say with no more than something like 3 to 5 casinos. I'll scout the entire venue and if I don't find anything highly valuable I'll go back to something less valuable that shift. But under no circumstance will I bother to count cards, and will accept the downtime for a shift if I have to in small venues. It makes no sense to draw attention to myself for only $100-$200/hr on something as easily detectable as counting cards while stalking a play worth thousands/hr, which could easily cause me to get tossed much more quickly when the good play becomes available.

This is all part of typical career advancement. When I started out ~20 yrs ago, I would plop down on the first table I came to with good card counting conditions, oblivious that there was a much better opportunity at a nearby table, and I was very proud and excited about the earnings that I now know to have been only chump change. Eventually I learned of the better play and would take it instead of card counting, oblivious to the fact that there were yet even better opportunities elsewhere in the casino (or even at the same table!). Keep in mind this was before Al Gore invented the internet and there wasn't much reference material available beyond card counting back then, so it was much harder to develop networks and the learning curve was longer back then than it is in today's environment. I consider myself still a student of AP with more yet to learn and room for even further advancement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macgeek View Post
If they give you a offer for Biloxi or New Orleans, its more like $1000 in free play, and airfare (Ceasers is good at that for A/P)
Years ago when promo hustling was a bigger part of my play, I would fly coach but photo shop the printout of my e-ticket or confirmation email so that it appeared that I flew 1st class at much higher cost, and then present that to multiple casinos for reimbursement. So I'd spend around $300 on airfare and get reimbursed maybe $3k-$4k depending on how many casinos reimbursed me that trip. I'd actually drive to some non-LV venues but still get airfare reimbursement.

I never really got much substantial free play as mail offers because my play on machines has always been minimal. I did once earn a very large amount playing a promo in which the promo bonus earned was paid in freeplay instead of cash. Some of my biggest individual promo offers that I recall getting through the mail off the top of my head were a $5000 match play, a $3000 Macy's gift card, and $3000 in promo chips. I would not get these kind of offers on a continual basis (more typically offers would be in the $500-1000 range of value), and of course when you get tossed the casino usually cuts off the mail on that account pretty quickly, and your offers on a new replacement players account are small until you build some history. Also keep in mind that the actual value of match plays is only about half of their face value. Ditto for promo chips if they are taken on a win or loss (but they are worth close to face value if you retain them on a win... policy varies by casino).

I typically would have 2 or 3 different accounts going at the same time, each with a varying amount of history. So I'd get maybe an offer for $1000 in promo chips on one account, maybe the same mailer but for only $500 on another account with less history, and maybe $100 offer on the 3rd account that is pretty new, all from the same casino at the same time. And often a casino makes the same offer for the following month. So I'd plan a trip to straddle the month end and collect one set of monthly offers at the beginning of the trip, and then collect the next month's offers a few days later.

The big downside is it takes a tremendous amount of time to collect all the offers. Most require a hotel check-in to collect, then often you usually have to go to the cage or players club (or both), and then if it's something like freeplay or promo chips you have to play it off. It's a lot of finally getting out of one line and into another. And then there is travel time getting to the next casino, and it starts over. On a 14 day trip, usually at least 4-5 days of it in terms of total accumulated time was spent chasing promo collections. So there is substantial cost in promo collections from it taking away a lot of time for live play, which is the reason promo hustling isn't my primary focus anymore. I do still collect the biggest and any quick/easy ones.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:32 PM
 
322 posts, read 255,764 times
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Originally Posted by SouthernSarah View Post
I don't gamble at all but from what I am reading here you are saying that if you become a professional gambler and make any decent money, the casino tosses you out and will not allow you to play there??? To me that is just another reason to never start gambling. It appears that to do so ensures you should just hand your cash over to the casino and leave, because to do anything else will just get you booted anyway.
First, I don't gamble at all either. True I don't know the outcome of any single given hand of cards or roll of the dice, but I know almost exactly what my earnings will be over the long run and the degree of certainty of success. What I do is much, much less of a gamble than opening a retail shop or even taking a 9-5 job working for Da Man. The retail shop could go bankrupt and there is always a gamble that you'll get laid off on the 9-5 job and can't find another.

Casinos don't mind winners as long as they think it was just luck. It's when they figure out you are smart enough to play only such that the odds are in your favor that you become unwelcome. Sometimes the AP is "86'd", meaning he is told the casino is private property, he is no longer welcome, and will be arrested for trespassing if he returns. Sometimes, especially in more petty cases like a small stakes card counter for example, the AP is not 86'd, but other countermeasures are taken to eliminate the AP's edge. He may be told he is "flat bet", meaning he is not allowed to vary his bet size on a hand from the the amount he bet on the previous hand, or he may be told told something like "you are welcome to play any other game but blackjack". We call this a "back off".

The flaw in your thinking is that even being 86'd is pretty meaningless towards keeping the pro from playing there again in the future, and the casino's attempts of intimidation by threatening arrest for trespassing is simply a good laugh to pros. I won't go into detail about the reasons, but usually when the pro goes back in a few weeks or months the casino has no legal right to detain or have the pro arrested for trespassing. If they do so they are exposing themselves to substantial financial hurt for false arrest. And even if they have dotted all their "I's" and crossed the "T's" and have legal cause to arrest the pro, it's only a misdemeanor, much like a speeding ticket, so the pro is only out a few bucks for a fine and a little processing time, and it's quickly back to work as usual. So for all practical purposes, once the AP's taking their money again under a new alias which eventually gets noticed, typically the AP is only 86'd again and the cycle starts over. My mantra is that I can make up new names faster than they can throw them out.

The risk of player abuse by casinos is now greatly reduced by accumulated case law over the last few years. For example, in the Chen case, Monte Carlo Casino tried to confiscate his winnings when they realized he was an undesirable that came back to play under an alias. The court clearly ruled there is nothing wrong with that and ordered in his favor. In Tunica, there was this case and award a few years ago involving false arrest: Hollywood Tunica held liable for abusing player. The Grosjean/Caesar's reference in my post above involved a case in which Caesar's Palace falsely accused Grosjean of cheating, fabricated evidence, and used that to have him arrested when actually he was doing nothing wrong. Grosjean spent 4 days in jail, but Caesar's paid dearly and I don't think they, or any other LV casino, will do that again. Grosjean's account of the play and his arrest can be found here if interested: James Grosjean's Account of His Arrest On False Cheating Charges at Caesars Palace. His civil suit and settlement came after that account was written.

Similarly, Grosjean has won a major award against Imperial Palace for abuse related to the Caesar's case above, and he won a substantial award against Griffin Investigations (provider of the famous "Griffin Book" of casino undesirables that many casinos subscribed to) which was the final straw that caused Griffin to file bankruptcy. Grosjean has written a highly acclaimed reference book on AP, he appeared on the "Ultimate BJ Tour" TV series, and his picture is even readily available online. In short, he is one of the APs most dangerous to the the casinos' bottom line, he is a highly public figure, and yet after all of that occurred I would still by chance happening see him on occasion sitting at a table in a major LV strip casino making a substantial play. If casinos can't even keep him out, why should any of us mere mortals be concerned?
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