[Durango118]

This is for a pool, raised spa, water feature, heater, VS Pump, Salt cell, infloor cleaner, remote, LED lighting, decking, and also we are going to incorporate our present patio which is simply plain cement currently to whatever we decide to do for the pool deck. Splash design uses Hayward equipment and Laguna uses Pentair.

[lvoc]

Why not simply use a small pump and a large pump in parallel. You would need a check valve with each to isolate them. But that sounds cheaper and actually more reliable and functional than a variable speed.

I think I may do that. But I will hire hre old AA702 to do the plumbing. What I would end up with would be a small maybe half horse running my filter and a 1 and 1/2 to run the pool cleaner.

For those who care about such odd things the X10Shop has a whole mess of 230volt 20 amp modules for sale for $14.99. Simply shove one in a timer box and you have a very fancy controller available.

I gather this is all 10 year old inventory so I would buy two for each need and check them out when you get them. They would be ideal for such things as waterfall and feature pumps. Iordered 5.

[latin_racer]

Are you paying cash or financing?

[Durango118]

latin_racer ?? why do you ask?

[latin_racer]

Trying to see if any of this places does financing or just save the money which will take a while and pay full cash for it.

[Durango118]

Some of them do financing and some do not. I personally would not finance a pool through a pool company.

[LV2ndHome]

Originally Posted by lvoc

Why not simply use a small pump and a large pump in parallel. You would need a check valve with each to isolate them. But that sounds cheaper and actually more reliable and functional than a variable speed.

I think I may do that. But I will hire hre old AA702 to do the plumbing. What I would end up with would be a small maybe half horse running my filter and a 1 and 1/2 to run the pool cleaner.

In short, you don't save that much on the initial cost, you still have single speed pumps that are highly inefficient on power consumption costs, and you have more maintenance costs/headaches down the road due to having more pieces of equipment in service.

I bought a Pentair VS for less than $850 before rebate. I did a quick search of some Pentair pump models and though I didn't spend any time shopping for the absolute best deals, it looks like the two pumps combined would probably run somewhere around $500-600, there is no rebate on them, and this is also not counting the 2 check valves, additional pipe/fittings, and the additional installation labor required over a single VS pump installation.

The various Pentair 1/2 hp models are rated from about 1000 watts to over 1250 watts. For that kind of power usage I get over twice the flow from my VS, which runs my filter and water features all at the same time. I haven't checked exact numbers, but if I were to slow down my VS to match the performance curves of the single speed pumps, obviously my power consumption would be substantially less.

Note that the Pentair 1/2 hp pumps all have a high SF, so the SFHP is much closer to 1 than 1/2. I did find a Hayward 1/2 hp pump with 0.6 SFHP, so it would use less power, but it's performance curve is in the toilet and thus wouldn't be satisfactory for filter use on most inground set ups, or it would have to run a lot more hours per day if you did use it.

Originally Posted by lvoc

For those who care about such odd things the X10Shop has a whole mess of 230volt 20 amp modules for sale for $14.99. Simply shove one in a timer box and you have a very fancy controller available.

Obviously your idea of a "very fancy controller" and mine differ substantially. I'll stick with my Jandy controller with a nice remote specifically designed for pool/spa applications that can quickly, easily, and reliably control ALL functions of the pool/spa. I think most people with pools looking for controllers would either spend a few hundred extra to get a good system or do without. There is a reason you can readily find old X10 stuff in many bargain basements at clearance prices. You usually get what you pay for, and this is a textbook example. Even if I currently had nothing controller wise, I seriously would opt not to waste my time setting up X10 if you gave me the components for free.

[lvoc]

Originally Posted by LV2ndHome

In short, you don't save that much on the initial cost, you still have single speed pumps that are highly inefficient on power consumption costs, and you have more maintenance costs/headaches down the road due to having more pieces of equipment in service.

I bought a Pentair VS for less than $850 before rebate. I did a quick search of some Pentair pump models and though I didn't spend any time shopping for the absolute best deals, it looks like the two pumps combined would probably run somewhere around $500-600, there is no rebate on them, and this is also not counting the 2 check valves, additional pipe/fittings, and the additional installation labor required over a single VS pump installation.

Actually I can easily do the two pumps for $450 or so. I ain't gonna buy Pentair...I don't need the Logos thrill.

So I put in the two check valves and labor and I am about $100 to the good.

So I start off $100 up... when we get rid of all the posturing...

The various Pentair 1/2 hp models are rated from about 1000 watts to over 1250 watts. For that kind of power usage I get over twice the flow from my VS, which runs my filter and water features all at the same time. I haven't checked exact numbers, but if I were to slow down my VS to match the performance curves of the single speed pumps, obviously my power consumption would be substantially less.

Well you certainly should.

1/2) horsepower = 372.849936 watts (Thanks Google)

and actually you should get close to 3 times the flow...all things being equal. So you are claiming that you lose money on the variable.

Note that the Pentair 1/2 hp pumps all have a high SF, so the SFHP is much closer to 1 than 1/2. I did find a Hayward 1/2 hp pump with 0.6 SFHP, so it would use less power, but it's performance curve is in the toilet and thus wouldn't be satisfactory for filter use on most inground set ups, or it would have to run a lot more hours per day if you did use it.

Let me give you practical engineering 101. No variable device ever gets near a single parameter device. Never. Does not happen. No variable speed pump capable of 1.5 horsepower in a matched system will ever be remotely competitive with a 1/2 horsepower equivalent at the half horsepower operating point.

Obviously your idea of a "very fancy controller" and mine differ substantially. I'll stick with my Jandy controller with a nice remote specifically designed for pool/spa applications that can quickly, easily, and reliably control ALL functions of the pool/spa. I think most people with pools looking for controllers would either spend a few hundred extra to get a good system or do without. There is a reason you can readily find old X10 stuff in many bargain basements at clearance prices. You usually get what you pay for, and this is a textbook example. Even if I currently had nothing controller wise, I seriously would opt not to waste my time setting up X10 if you gave me the components for free.

To each his own. YOu can go off and pay $150. for a $10 relay if it turns you on. For those who want to do this on their own art it is a no brainer. Such heavy contacts with a signalling means are normally quite expensive. Good industrial control stuff will run above a grand.
And if you are happy in the world of software and X10s and such you will get a much nicer system at a much lower price.

[LV2ndHome]

Originally Posted by lvoc

Well you certainly should.

1/2) horsepower = 372.849936 watts (Thanks Google)

and actually you should get close to 3 times the flow...all things being equal. So you are claiming that you lose money on the variable.

The conversion from electric power consumption to hp is not as simple as you wish it to be. Electric motors are far from 100% efficient. Look at the specs of various brands and configurations of motors all of the same hp and you will find varying electric loads among them, as they won't all have the same efficiency, and they will all be significantly higher than 745 watts per hp.

Originally Posted by lvoc

Let me give you practical engineering 101. No variable device ever gets near a single parameter device. Never. Does not happen. No variable speed pump capable of 1.5 horsepower in a matched system will ever be remotely competitive with a 1/2 horsepower equivalent at the half horsepower operating point. If you need this explained to you...it probably cannot be...

Early in this thread another poster posted a video that's been around forever of a demonstration of VS being more energy efficient compared to a smaller single speed pump when both are pumping the same volume at the same pressure in the same set up. Here it is again:

Variable speed pool pump efficiency test Pool Technicians 760-537-0289 - YouTube

[mod cut-- rude, personal]

Originally Posted by lvoc

To each his own. YOu can go off and pay $150. for a $10 relay if it turns you on. For those who want to do this on their own art it is a no brainer. Such heavy contacts with a signalling means are normally quite expensive. Good industrial control stuff will run above a grand. Now if you really want to spend a grand on your waterfall controller I salute you. I prefer 35 dollars.

And if you are happy in the world of software and X10s and such you will get a much nicer system at a much lower price.

But if you like making other guys rich...go for it. Maybe I can consult for you? I will hide what I actually know.

You aren't even close on your numbers. You are comparing turnkey custom jobs on better systems to DIY installs of X10 which is an apples to oranges comparison. One can do DIY on better systems, or one can "make other guys rich" by hiring them to do a custom X10 install. I've found Jandy components on eBay and in closeout situations for a small fraction of MSRP just as you've found cheaper than MSRP X10 stuff, and I do my own install work just as you propose on your X10. Yes I still have a little more in my Jandy than you have in your X10, but it is designed specifically for pool/spa applications, meaning it can do a whole lot more a whole lot easier, and it does so reliably. For example, remote layouts are designed with pool/spa use in mind, so not only is it easy to turn on the spa heater, but it's also easy to adjust the temperature setting, and some remotes are made water resistant as well in knowing the environment of their intended use. Most people that can afford a pool and a controller are not going accept such a major step down as an X10 would be for only a few hundred dollars in initial savings. And there are plenty of other brands/models of pool controllers cheaper than Jandy that are much better than X10.

X10 was popular many years ago when people were first interested in home automation simply because it was cheap and there wasn't much of anything else out there. It is notorious for being unreliable and many components failing fairly quickly. If you are going to suggest a generic home automation system for pool use, at least step up to 2nd generation technology like Insteon or Z-wave. X10 is like suggesting someone install a window crank in their car as an alternative to a/c as a method of controlling temperature.

[MediocreButArrogant]

The motors used in variable speed pool pumps are permanent magnet, brushless DC motors, not the regular AC induction motors used in single speed pumps. This makes them about 30% more efficient than a single-speed motor when operating at rated output, which is likely more than enough to offset the inefficiency introduced by running them at less than rated output. Perhaps more important is the fact that since they run so much cooler, than can be totally enclosed, which makes them very quiet. Mine is about as loud as an aquarium pump when running at low speed (power consumption 300 watts), while still flowing enough water to operate a suction side pool vacuum. A 1/2 hp single speed pump is going to be a lot louder, and consume at least 50% more electricity than a variable speed pump set to the same speed as mine on low setting.