[beachhead]

While I haven't had the "fun" of buying a car here yet, my brother has lived here many years, and says the local dealers won't back off their junk fee for filling out the paperwork, that should simply be in their overhead, because they have to do so anyway. I look forward to seeing if I can prove him wrong... Has anyone been able to get it eliminated in the Las Vegas area?

[Raiderman]

The only way around the doc fee is to have the price lowered by the same amount, but it has to be on there. I started in the car business in the early 90s, and always wondered why it couldn't be waived. The answer I got (and used for the 20 or so years I was in the industry), is that if it's waived for one person, that would open the dealer up for a class action law suit by everyone else who has ever paid it. Whether that's true or not, it made sense in my head.


I'm not in the car business any longer, but I am in another industry that charges a doc fee on every sale. We have passed on sales where our profit margin was too thin to absorb the doc fee (it's $389 where I work). If there is enough profit margin left, we will reduce the price by that amount if it's a deal breaker. But it's a case by case call, and the doc fee is never waived. I sell things that range from $20,000 to $200,000, so the $389 is not often brought in to play, unless it's an objection based on principle. Today, for instance, we split it with a customer so they could feel like they "won". But the line item is on the contract at the full amount, we just reduced the price.

[airics]

Originally Posted by BBMW

This is the auto dealer equivalent of the resort fee. The just HAVE TO charge it. Thet try to sneak it in on the back end, so that they think they have you hooked and you'll give up. Throw it right in their face before starting the negotiation, and tell them straight up and down that your walk if they try to impose it after you've worked a price, and as often as not, they'll give it up.

The last car deal I worked they did this. It was for my sister in FL. She needed the car immediately, and essentially had to drive across FL to get the deal done, so I wasn't dealing from a huge position of strength (I couldn't really walk.) But after a bit of a yelling match on the dealership floor, I got half of it back.

its not on the backend.. its stated on every ad and every transaction page... it is not hidden... you might be thinking of the vtr fee.

[airics]

Originally Posted by Raiderman

The only way around the doc fee is to have the price lowered by the same amount, but it has to be on there. I started in the car business in the early 90s, and always wondered why it couldn't be waived. The answer I got (and used for the 20 or so years I was in the industry), is that if it's waived for one person, that would open the dealer up for a class action law suit by everyone else who has ever paid it. Whether that's true or not, it made sense in my head.


I'm not in the car business any longer, but I am in another industry that charges a doc fee on every sale. We have passed on sales where our profit margin was too thin to absorb the doc fee (it's $389 where I work). If there is enough profit margin left, we will reduce the price by that amount if it's a deal breaker. But it's a case by case call, and the doc fee is never waived. I sell things that range from $20,000 to $200,000, so the $389 is not often brought in to play, unless it's an objection based on principle. Today, for instance, we split it with a customer so they could feel like they "won". But the line item is on the contract at the full amount, we just reduced the price.

exactly... correct

[beachhead]

Originally Posted by Raiderman

The only way around the doc fee is to have the price lowered by the same amount, but it has to be on there. I started in the car business in the early 90s, and always wondered why it couldn't be waived. The answer I got (and used for the 20 or so years I was in the industry), is that if it's waived for one person, that would open the dealer up for a class action law suit by everyone else who has ever paid it. Whether that's true or not, it made sense in my head.

Thanks for the insight as to how they are thinking! I don't really care how they account for the price, because I'm looking at an overall out the door cost. It is good to know about this, as if they won't remove it, then a buyer needs to know it's there, and include it in their decision. Which in my case is any price I would consider accepting needs to be $500 less for any dealer in the Las Vegas area compared to other places.

I will add however, that to me, the excuse doesn't not hold water. Prices for things change all the time, for many different reasons, and certainly with cars, I'd think no two transactions are exactly the same. That's just a handy excuse, not a real reason.

[Raiderman]

Originally Posted by beachhead

Thanks for the insight as to how they are thinking! I don't really care how they account for the price, because I'm looking at an overall out the door cost. It is good to know about this, as if they won't remove it, then a buyer needs to know it's there, and include it in their decision. Which in my case is any price I would consider accepting needs to be $500 less for any dealer in the Las Vegas area compared to other places.

I will add however, that to me, the excuse doesn't not hold water. Prices for things change all the time, for many different reasons, and certainly with cars, I'd think no two transactions are exactly the same. That's just a handy excuse, not a real reason.

"Out the door" is always the best way to get your information if you are paying cash. When I shop, it's always payment based, so I really don't care what the price and fees are. The same out the door price does not mean much if one dealer is holding an extra point and a half in the back. The price is only part of the total equation. If I shop identical products across multiple dealers, I go with whomever provides me with the best service and responds the best to my needs, as long as they are in the same ballpark as the others. I don't always go with the cheapest, as I'm a firm believer in you get what you pay for. I'll pay more for better service... but not dramatically more

[BBMW]

Not on the deal I describe. I didn't know about it till they handed us the contract. That's why/when the SHTF. If they had informed us upfront, I would have dealt with it before we drove across FL to get there (or not done the deal with them at all.)

We found the dealer through Edmunds. I used there quote service. The got a quote from the dealer and forwarded it. When the SHTF about this, the salesdroid said it was in the quote. I showed him it wasn't. The worked through Truecar also, and he showed me one of those quotes that had it. But that didn't have anything to do with my deal.

Originally Posted by airics

its not on the backend.. its stated on every ad and every transaction page... it is not hidden... you might be thinking of the vtr fee.

[BBMW]

Shop your money separately from the car. Have loans lined up before you walk in. When you start the deal, tell the sales droid you're not even going to talk about the loan till you work out the price.

Same with the old car your replacing. Either sell it privately, or refuse to even discuss it till you pin down a price on the new car.

Originally Posted by Raiderman

"Out the door" is always the best way to get your information if you are paying cash. When I shop, it's always payment based, so I really don't care what the price and fees are. The same out the door price does not mean much if one dealer is holding an extra point and a half in the back. The price is only part of the total equation. If I shop identical products across multiple dealers, I go with whomever provides me with the best service and responds the best to my needs, as long as they are in the same ballpark as the others. I don't always go with the cheapest, as I'm a firm believer in you get what you pay for. I'll pay more for better service... but not dramatically more

[Raiderman]

Originally Posted by BBMW

Shop your money separately from the car. Have loans lined up before you walk in. When you start the deal, tell the sales droid you're not even going to talk about the loan till you work out the price.

Same with the old car your replacing. Either sell it privately, or refuse to even discuss it till you pin down a price on the new car.

If paying cash, and have a trade, there is only one number that matters. That number is the trade difference. If I'm buying a $60,000 car and my trade has an ACV of $20,000, the $40,000 number is the only one that matters. Why would I care if the dealer is charging $100,000 and giving me $60,000, or if they are charging $40,100 and giving me $100? And if I'm a payment buyer, the $40,000 doesn't really matter, either. If a dealer is at $42K, and provides a lower payment than one at $38K, it makes no difference to me what the sale price is. But, then again, I'm also not the type that would squabble over a few hundred bucks in fees. A year down the road, I'm not going to remember what I paid for the car to the dollar anyway. I'm buying a car, not a payment or a price. If I'm happy with the car, and comfortable with the price and/or payment, I'm a happy dude.

[xusafpilot]

That would work if you are buying a "Balloon" car, but if you are in the market for a more upscale German automobile, the prices are going to be high regardless. Mercedes Benz, Porsche, Audi, BMW, etc are not Balloon cars as are Toyota, Nissan, KIA and the rest of that junk.