[Nodaclu]

Okay. I took a few days off to calm down. The responses actually caused me to lose sleep for two nights and I had to back off for a bit.

But I'm trying like hell not to run away from my problems, so I'll stand here, apologize for my tone, rants, and words. I'll also do my best to explain myself calmly and rationally. I'll also try to ask questions about some assumptions that some in this thread have made, in the hopes of clarification and a genuinely helpful discourse.

My nerves are frayed as a result of this experience, and I'm sorry if I took it out on anyone personally, especially you OleCapt. I still disagree with you, but I will attempt to do so with grace and humility going forward.

[Nodaclu]

Originally Posted by Coop01

I am puzzled though about the comment about "foreclosing" . Did they file the papers to foreclose? I understand that you have not paid them for quite some time. This might be a new tactic in their arsenal. Strange.

CW has not even filed a "Notice of Default" with Clark County yet, and we're seven months in. If I'm understanding the law correctly, they still have up to 90 days to actually foreclose once they do that. So we'll be pushing on a year at this point to get this finished. Hence my frustration with everything just sort of sitting here idle.

[Nodaclu]

Originally Posted by gulfer

Nodaclu,
I'm going to defend the OleCapt on this one. I didn't read any of what you did in his first posting. He's a straight shooter and gave you a straight answer.

That's completely fair. I didn't like his response but I overreacted in my reply. That's out of the norm for me and I feel badly about it. I could use my over-the-top stress level as an out, but I won't, as there was truly no excuse for it.

I remember your posts from earlier (but haven't searched to re-read them). I remember his saying a long time ago you should have just stayed in the home, but for your personal convictions you did not. Good for you. But maybe a bad business move.

Several have added that they agree with OleCapt on this one, and again, that's okay. But it gives me a chance to ask a question, because I genuinely don't know what my other options would have been, so here it is:

If I had stayed in the house all this time, and was only now trying to find a new place to live, who would have rented to me?

I'm now 7 months delinquent on my mortgage, my credit score, which was 720 in September, now stands at 540. I had to pass a credit check to get into the place I'm in now - which is probably the least expensive neighborhood in Henderson. I wanted to try and stay in the same school zone and cause as little disruption to my daughter's life as possible (another topic that has come up that I will try to remember and address later).

There was a small chance that I would have been able to rent from an individual landlord who might have been empathetic to my sob story and took a chance on me, but that seemed like a huge risk to take.

So again, this is a part of the general response that I'm simply not comprehending. My parents are 600 miles away and my dad is in poor health. Moving my whole family to live with my or my wife's parents at nearly 40 years old wasn't an option.

If you guys could explain what kind of housing options I would have had at this point with my now trashed credit (and a dog and cat in tow), I would honestly love to hear them. I made the best choice I could with the info I had, but if you guys can give me some specific examples of other options, I'd appreciate them.

I'm not going to preach to anyone on here, but you hit the nail on the head. CW does not give a damn about you or your family. To them you are a piece of paper. What I think the Capt meant was, since your home is vacant and your not living in there without paying, you went to the bottom of that pile of paperwork.

I definitely know that I'm nothing more then a loan number and a piece of paper to them. I made a comment that it felt like I was being singled out, but believe me, I know better. I know that I mean absolutely nothing to them in the big picture.

Where OleCapt and I went awry is that he somehow got the impression that I moved out knowing that it was going to put me at the bottom of the CW pile - that I was knowingly screwing myself for the sake of my morals.

Not true. I did not know this. I honestly had no idea that CW would bury me as a result of this decision. And if he told me that months ago, it got lost in all the insanity. Had I known that, I *might* have made a different decision.

Here's a bit more backstory. Please bear with me.

I first put my house on the market in July 2006 - 21 months ago. For the first 14 months, I did not receive one single offer the entire time. Not one.

I agreed with my Realtor that a change in strategy and approach couldn't hurt, so I moved out - which allowed Realtors to show the place any time 24/7. In the following seven months, I had 11 offers - none of which CW would accept.

So from the standpoint of potentially generating interest and offers, the strategy worked. From a selling standpoint, it obviously didn't.

So if I can be accused of anything here, it would be of losing track of the advice that OleCapt offered months ago, and listening to some bad advice from my Realtor. It definitely wasn't the first time for that one through this process (I'm currently on the third Realtor. I let the first two go after both of them repeatedly resisted my requests to drop the asking price over those first 12 months.)

I mentioned the other day about getting the low ball offer (250K) and putting that together with 15K of your own money to come up with the 265K that they are demanding you get. Any luck with that?

Sorry for taking so long to get back to this. I know you've asked me a couple of times. Here's the situation:

I owe the IRS just over $26K. (Thought it was going to be over 30K, but the 07 taxes weren't quite as bad as I first feared.) They want their money, and being the feds, they come first. They have to. I know it and CW even knows it.

CW wanted me to kick in cash on the very first offer. I believe it was 20 grand. I responded that I owed the IRS nearly 30K and that they had to come first. I would consider carrying a loan, but that was the best I could do.

They've refused to talk with me about cash from my end since then. I don't know why, but here is my best guess:

They probably fear that, once I agree to terms, that I'll immediately file bankruptcy. Taxes can't be forgiven in a BK, so that will take priority over all other debts. It's going to take a while to pay back $26K in taxes, and CW may feel that they will never get their money out of me if all this were to play out.

On top of that, adding another $15K to my $26K of IRS debt, $27K of CC debt and $10K of car payments (wife's car) left on a vehicle I'm upside down on (yes, I know - I'm an example of someone with zero ability to manage money and spend only the money I make) would push me past the breaking point.

I really hope you can get out of this as I'm sure it has stressed you and your family to the breaking point. Keep that chin up, get an offer and see what you can do to come up with the rest and put all of this behind you.

Good luck to you.

Thanks Gulfer. I really appreciate the fact that you can see both sides of this. That's honestly what I was hoping for when I chimed in here. I can take criticism as long as it's intending to educate and help. It was the "attack" mode of some of the posts that got to me, and I'm going to do my best not to let them get the best of me again.

[Nodaclu]

Originally Posted by deefromlv

I have to agree with Olecapt. Personal convictions, ethics, and morals are great. But when you have a family, they come first. Always. Sometimes that means doing something that is morally repugnant to you but would mean helping your family. I grew up poor. My parents faced these types of decisions often, and I can tell you I deeply respected what they sacrificed for me (both materially and morally) in order to keep me fed, clothed, and sheltered.

D

Hi Dee,

Thanks for backing up your position with an explanation. I can deal with that far better then the kind of "piling on" response from Randy, who seemed to post for no other useful reason then to kick a man when he was already down.

I honestly felt like I was putting my family first by making the choice I did for some of these reasons:

1) By staying in the house, I would have been teaching my daughter that it's okay to live someplace and not pay for it by taking advantage of the system - though honestly, this is less important then the two following reasons. (Some would say this reason is just me being "childish" and living in a "fantasy" world again.) Fair enough.

2) As mentioned above, I honestly don't know where I would have moved with a credit score of 540, since the place I'm currently renting, and every single other property I called on, planned to run a credit check as a selection criteria for deciding whether or not to rent to me. Pulling my daughter out of her school and putting her somewhere else because I could only rent some seedy apartment in a not-so-great neighborhood elsewhere would have been far more disruptive to her life.

At least that's the way I see it.

3) OleCapt brought this one up, and it goes along with #2. Unless I mis-read him, he seemed to imply that I was purposely and consciously damaging my daughter by making this move when I did.

What I don't understand is this: If we had waited until the Sheriff came and posted a notice to our door, or even worse, came and kicked us out, how is that less damaging to my daughter? To me, that scenario would have been far more traumatic for her to go through then the choice I ultimately made.

I was severely sheltered by my parents as a child. As a result, I wasn't even close to being ready for the "real world" when I hit age 18. And according to some in this thread - I'm still not.

I do try to shield my daughter from the "worst" of life, but there is no way I'm going to pretend that bad things don't sometimes happen to each and every one of us from time to time as we go through life.

My wife and I discussed all of this with her at the beginning in the kind of general terms that an 11 year old can grasp. She's struggled with it, as we all have. But she's turned a corner in the past few weeks, and things are moving forward in a positive direction again.

If we'd waited to move, all of those same struggles (and more) would still be ahead of all of us, instead of slowly disappearing into the distance behind us.

Again, I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion of right or wrong. I just felt that pieces of the puzzle were missing, and I was doing everyone a disservice by not filling them in.

If you still believe I was wrong to do what I did, that's perfectly okay. I did the very best I could with the information I had at the time - I know this in my heart to be true. Isn't that what we're all supposed to do for our children and families?

My parents did, and I'm just trying my best to do the same.

[Coop01]

Originally Posted by Nodaclu

CW has not even filed a "Notice of Default" with Clark County yet, and we're seven months in. If I'm understanding the law correctly, they still have up to 90 days to actually foreclose once they do that. So we'll be pushing on a year at this point to get this finished. Hence my frustration with everything just sort of sitting here idle.

. Very interesting since I received a NOD in a matter of days.
I'm guessing that your mortgage is actually embedded in a tranche of many such mortgages that were sold and resold as part of the CMO scheme.
I'll bet they can't get their hands on the actual documents that are required to foreclose! Without those documents, judges are turning away the lenders because they cannot prove they are the owners of the note or the property. This problem has surfaced in Florida, Ohio, New York and good ole Las Vegas. Many defaulters are still living in their beach front homes for as long a two years rent free.
Here is one website Article: You can stop foreclosure and put the lender on the defense
Do some searching on the internet and find out how often this situation occurs. This might be why they are refusing offers also. They can't prove they own the property It might be time to retain an attorney to "inquire" into the reason why they are not proceeding in an orderly manner with the foreclosure process. This is very strange indeed. Wouldn't it be wonderful if you owned the house "free and clear". Not likely but Just a thought. Newspapers like these kind of stories. Maybe they can help if you can stand the publicity.

[fishordie]

Yo Nod,

I have been reading these posts from the sidelines and have had enough of the nonsense. Your wonderfully worded and well thought out response should make any self respecting American sit up and take notice. I am tired of the garbage these so called experts, brokers and agents have been spewing. You sir are a great example of truth, Honesty and the "True" American way.

Obviously you made some decisions that came and bit you in the butt as many well intentioned Americans did. You took responsibility for those decisions and rather than looking at the lenders as some No Name, none existing entity who could and should absorb your mistakes, you attempted to do right under your obligations to them and just as importantly your job to your family. Your lessons of morality, ethics and culpability for you own actions are lessons your daughter can take with her for the rest of her life as well as satisfying what is readily apparent as your own sense of self, morality and honesty. Bravo to you and your decision.

These folks who say stick it to those No good lenders, be it Country Wide or Joes lending house are blinded by their own B.S. You stood up and gave more than lip service to show you will do whatever you can to rectify the situation. That is what I was taught was the basis of being a Man. More folks should learn what the term really means. A Man does not blame others and takes responsibility for his actions. He attempts to rectify any and all results of his bad decisions in the best possible manner. He teaches his children and retains his own sense of honor and justice which cannot be bought or bartered thus teaching those around him by example not by meaningless words. I can go on and on but I think I am making my point.

I am tired of listening to these so called experts call you a fool for doing the right thing. Those who stated you put integrity before your families needs or words to that effect do not fit my or my father's or generations of my "Dirt Farmer" family's interpretations of honor and integrity or just plain doing the right and admirable thing. In my Family Honesty and Integrity are concepts that are black and white. You either live them or you don't. There are no shades of gray as many would have you believe. You are a man who obviously understands and lives by that standard. Never let anyone take that away from you nor let the actions of the lenders deemed "unethical" by so called experts change your stance.

By intent or accident you were able to use your pre-foreclosure and other credit reducing events credit rating of 720 to insure you could live almost anywhere you chose in the rental market. Had you listened to these geniuses or other advisers who teach you how to use other folks money to make you rich..... Or poor, you would have had a hard time finding a trailer park for you and your family to live in as your credit score plummeted. Based on this gentleman's explanation and results in this regard I hope you folks who were trying to make this guy feel like a fool now realize who the real fools were..... I doubt it though.

I have been dealing in real estate, buying and selling for over 30 years and have seen the ups and downs of the industry multiple times. The same applies to the Stock Market. I have been very fortunate in my results much of it due to not over reaching and being fiscally responsible.

Most all the agents, in both businesses, know little more than you or I and I assure you the same mentality of taking care of their families "Financial Needs" before honoring their commitments to their clients or creditors will come first. Their comments in regards to your actions clearly confirms my statements. They obviously follow the mandate of Look out for number one first regardless of what ethics and honor you sell out for. As long as it doesn't impact their families they may do what is right. To me that is purely "Number Two".


In an up market of real estate or Stocks, every agent is a genius. Its when we have a down market intelligence, honesty and morality will separate the great from the
Wanna Be's. Personal Financial success of such brokers means nothing to me. Folks like you have had poor results financially, at least today, yet are infinitely more successful as for as succeeding in the moral and ethical arena bring far more to this country than the rich "USERS" who make their money on the backs of others. The children of many of these users will spend endless days in therapy and misery. They, themselves, will wonder why happiness seems to elude them even with all their money. I am speaking in generalities but more often than not this has been the case. I do not doubt you will fight your way back to success as your daughter and associates watch. Your starting with the best tools a man can have.

Again, great job putting the morally bankrupt folks in their place or giving those who have not lost sight of the truth a moment to think again about what you did, at least as far as I am concerned, and congratulations on using your good karma to perpetuate the potential for getting out of your mess.

I know you restrained yourself in your response so let me take the heat...... I really do not care.

As a note to those who will be responding to the reply, I hold many very valuable properties in Vegas both existing and still under construction. I purchased at prices that were introductory and not at numbers that made zero sense. I established my own feel for the bottoms and tops of the markets and purchased accordingly. I did my own research which turned out to be correct at least so far. I take brokers and agents inputs giving them the credence they deserve combining them with my own data. After all knowledge is power and I try to learn from everyone even brokers, especially the great ones.

Okay, bring on the heck

FOD

[Daddys///M3]

^^^ I'm a loan officer and I've already applauded Nod's integrity, so your blanket statements are a little off.

[fishordie]

Originally Posted by Daddys///M3

^^^ I'm a loan officer and I've already applauded Nod's integrity, so your blanket statements are a little off.

Please re read my statements as generalities and separating those who have not lost sight of honorable behavior from the others. The term "Blanket Statement" is yours not mine. None of my statements were absolutes nor did I call out any names or posts, however, based on the over whelming replies calling Nod something less than smart in his approach, I will leave it to each to determine if it applies or not. Again, these are my opinions nothing more.

FOD

[Nodaclu]

Thank you fishordie for your kind words.

And to confirm, Daddys///M3 was one of only two people to see my integrity as a positive during the previous exchange.

Gulfer did too. He actually saw both sides of it and expanded on each, which I also greatly respect.

My words and yours may do little to change anyone's opinion. My challenge is to understand the way that the world is changing around me, and do my best to adapt, without changing who I am at the core.

My Grandfather's world of a man's handshake and his word being golden are long gone. My dad can no longer walk to the local Savings & Loan and get a short term loan on the spot because the local banker "knows" him - like he occasionally did in my early childhood.

It sucks that those days are gone....but they are. The key is learning to adapt, survive and flourish today's world without losing sight of my core values and beliefs.

I've learned two important things from this exchange over the past few days.

1) I need to make some mental adjustments to a world that no longer holds integrity in the highest regard above all else. (I do think it still matters to most - it just isn't #1 anymore - maybe #2 or #3.) I've refused to believe that for the longest time, but I finally, totally get it and see it now.

2) I need to continue to be the person I am, regardless of the stones thrown at me. I'll occasionally make mistakes as any human being does. I'll do dumb things and make stupid choices from time to time.

But as long as I can look myself in the eye in the mirror before bed each night, and know in my heart that I did the best I could for myself and those who depend on me, then that has to be good enough, doesn't it?

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by fishordie

Yo Nod,

I have been reading these posts from the sidelines and have had enough of the nonsense. Your wonderfully worded and well thought out response should make any self respecting American sit up and take notice. I am tired of the garbage these so called experts, brokers and agents have been spewing. You sir are a great example of truth, Honesty and the "True" American way.

Obviously you made some decisions that came and bit you in the butt as many well intentioned Americans did. You took responsibility for those decisions and rather than looking at the lenders as some No Name, none existing entity who could and should absorb your mistakes, you attempted to do right under your obligations to them and just as importantly your job to your family. Your lessons of morality, ethics and culpability for you own actions are lessons your daughter can take with her for the rest of her life as well as satisfying what is readily apparent as your own sense of self, morality and honesty. Bravo to you and your decision.

Any attempt to get this on to a rational basis is inevitably met by this sort of garbage. Why don't we drop the polemics? Do I have to point out that moral, upright and stupid is still stupid?

These folks who say stick it to those No good lenders, be it Country Wide or Joes lending house are blinded by their own B.S. You stood up and gave more than lip service to show you will do whatever you can to rectify the situation. That is what I was taught was the basis of being a Man. More folks should learn what the term really means. A Man does not blame others and takes responsibility for his actions. He attempts to rectify any and all results of his bad decisions in the best possible manner. He teaches his children and retains his own sense of honor and justice which cannot be bought or bartered thus teaching those around him by example not by meaningless words. I can go on and on but I think I am making my point.

Again if you really wish to wrap this in the flag and good citizenship I will be glad to point out the other side. Why don't you get off your high horse so nodaclu does not again get beaten up yet again?

I am tired of listening to these so called experts call you a fool for doing the right thing. Those who stated you put integrity before your families needs or words to that effect do not fit my or my father's or generations of my "Dirt Farmer" family's interpretations of honor and integrity or just plain doing the right and admirable thing. In my Family Honesty and Integrity are concepts that are black and white. You either live them or you don't. There are no shades of gray as many would have you believe. You are a man who obviously understands and lives by that standard. Never let anyone take that away from you nor let the actions of the lenders deemed "unethical" by so called experts change your stance.

Will you kindly stop this nonsense. He screwed up. Tactically he made a bad situation into a very bad situation. Why don't you come up with something that might help rather than forcing me and others to call a spade a spade.

By intent or accident you were able to use your pre-foreclosure and other credit reducing events credit rating of 720 to insure you could live almost anywhere you chose in the rental market. Had you listened to these geniuses or other advisers who teach you how to use other folks money to make you rich..... Or poor, you would have had a hard time finding a trailer park for you and your family to live in as your credit score plummeted. Based on this gentleman's explanation and results in this regard I hope you folks who were trying to make this guy feel like a fool now realize who the real fools were..... I doubt it though.

You think this is somehow different from using the same credit score to buy another home? That because he lies de facto to a landlord it is better than if he de facto lied to another lender? Because it made it easy for him to rent a house where he wanted it was OK but if he told the landlords that he was defaulting on his mortgage they would not have rented to him? Or do you hold he could have rented anyway - thus no reason for leaving the home early and giving up all his leverage.

I have been dealing in real estate, buying and selling for over 30 years and have seen the ups and downs of the industry multiple times. The same applies to the Stock Market. I have been very fortunate in my results much of it due to not over reaching and being fiscally responsible.

Good for you. So what? I presume this guy had every intention of being prudent and responsible. He got screwed anyway.

Most all the agents, in both businesses, know little more than you or I and I assure you the same mentality of taking care of their families "Financial Needs" before honoring their commitments to their clients or creditors will come first. Their comments in regards to your actions clearly confirms my statements. They obviously follow the mandate of Look out for number one first regardless of what ethics and honor you sell out for. As long as it doesn't impact their families they may do what is right. To me that is purely "Number Two".

And those of the holier than thou libertarian creed are welcome to do as they wish. But to try and portray standard contracts terms and laws as matters of basic morality simply testifies to the ignorance of the presenter. One need do what the contract and laws require. And not a thing more. And the view of a pack of holier than thou types in no way changes this. If your private morality requires specific behavior do it. But then eat the consequences with dignity. Don't try and make it others fault. That the Lenders are screwed up beyond belief is a fact of life. That you get screwed by them because of this is another fact that you cannot change. There is nothing in your view of what you must do that will change the behavior of a berserk corporation even a tiny bit.

In an up market of real estate or Stocks, every agent is a genius. Its when we have a down market intelligence, honesty and morality will separate the great from the
Wanna Be's. Personal Financial success of such brokers means nothing to me. Folks like you have had poor results financially, at least today, yet are infinitely more successful as for as succeeding in the moral and ethical arena bring far more to this country than the rich "USERS" who make their money on the backs of others. The children of many of these users will spend endless days in therapy and misery. They, themselves, will wonder why happiness seems to elude them even with all their money. I am speaking in generalities but more often than not this has been the case. I do not doubt you will fight your way back to success as your daughter and associates watch. Your starting with the best tools a man can have.

Unbelieveable! Now you are suggesting that the sins of those who do the right thing for their families and themselves will vent as curses on the children. Some of you tend a little to the sick side.

Again, great job putting the morally bankrupt folks in their place or giving those who have not lost sight of the truth a moment to think again about what you did, at least as far as I am concerned, and congratulations on using your good karma to perpetuate the potential for getting out of your mess.

I know you restrained yourself in your response so let me take the heat...... I really do not care.

So you stick poor old nod up where he gets beat up for your pontificiatons. You are a piece of work.

As a note to those who will be responding to the reply, I hold many very valuable properties in Vegas both existing and still under construction. I purchased at prices that were introductory and not at numbers that made zero sense. I established my own feel for the bottoms and tops of the markets and purchased accordingly. I did my own research which turned out to be correct at least so far. I take brokers and agents inputs giving them the credence they deserve combining them with my own data. After all knowledge is power and I try to learn from everyone even brokers.

And don't you feel guilty for taking advantage of some poor seller? Does not your morality requiree you to pay the maximum you would each transaction to assure that you don't take advantage of the lack of wisdom or skill of your opponent?

Those who know what they are doing are certain free to practice the art.

Okay, bring on the heck

FOD

The only real hope left for Nod is to try and get the place sold. Continue listing it and taking the offers received to CW. Somewhere along the line they will likely come alive and say something. When they do you have a chance of actually getting it done.

Continue that until it gets foreclosed. You lose nothing and might get a break.

I remain personally sorry that you got caught in this mess. But it will all be behind you in time. Go forward. Do the best you have available. I will certainly root for you getting a good outcome.