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Old 09-12-2017, 08:52 AM
 
434 posts, read 326,064 times
Reputation: 406

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
Why do people insist on complaining about the least egregious things tax money goes to?

We spend more on one bomb for a goat farmer's shack than we do sending those 20 kids to school.
One Tomahawk missile is roughly 750,000 or 75 students.
The US dropped 59 of them on Syria recently in protest for an alleged Assad gas attack. So we killed a boat load of Syrians to show how bad killing Syrians is.
Roughly 44 million dollars.
4,400 students.

We spend more on ONE inmate than we do on 3 students. Average 30,000 per year to house one inmate.
Average cost to send 1 kid to school 10,000 per year.
In California it costs 75,000 to house one inmate. That's 7.5 students. One year of Harvard, full room and board max tuition, is 63,000.

We give about 43 Billion a year out in foreign aid. That is 4.3 million students.

Charles Schwab, that billionaire, got 564,000 in farm subsidies in one year to grow rice to attract ducks for him to hunt with his buddies. He is not the only one, either. There are 50 billionaires getting farm subsidies.
56.5 students.

We spent 150,000,000,000 150 BILLION on military bases in other countries.
15 MILLION students.

We only have 50 million k-12 public school students in the country.

Nevada is spending 750 million on a sportsball stadium.
7,500 students.

Single child households out number multiple child households and the trend is growing.
Spending money to educate people is the dumbest thing ever to object to.
Please read Dumbing Us Down by John Taylor Gatto. I have no objection to the facts you have cited above. However, additional money thrown at public education in its current state (if you can call it education at this point) will only serve to benefit the same people being enriched by the various things you have listed in your post. Who do you think benefits from all of the new textbooks, technology, and useless testing schemes which seem to appear every few years? It certainly is not your typical taxpayer and their kids. One only has to look at those interests which pushed Common Core curricula for all schools. Do you think their kids are going to schools using curricula aligned with Common Core? Out of curiosity, I did a search on the Web site for The Meadows Schools, the premier private school in Las Vegas, for the words Common Core. Not suprisingly, I could not locate any mention of those words on the school's Web site.

Further, I agree with you that the $750 million for a sports stadium could be invested in far better things or, better yet, it could simply not be collected at all and left in the pockets of those who will be taxed. However, I think it would be foolish to think that directing this large sum of money at the Clark County School District would result in it being spent wisely and, more importantly, on things which truly help educate the students in the district.

The bottom line is that the public school system is working well from the perspective of those at the top. They will continue to find ways to make it more difficult to learn subjects, such as reading and math, which are essential to developing critical thinking skills. Those critical thinking skills are what the majority need, yet currently lack, to prevent those items you have outlined in your post.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
12,685 posts, read 9,432,561 times
Reputation: 14934
Public education is a particularly difficult nut to crack, and lots of blood has been shed trying to make things better.

The price tag of public education has skyrocketed for no apparent reason. We have thrown tons of money at the problem trying to make things better.

The results have been failures. Not merely failures -- but spectacular failures.

For example:




Where the heck is all that money going? It isn't going to teacher compensation:





Clearly, teachers are not getting rich. Even when you add in the value of teachers' public sector pensions & health care (easily several million dollars per teacher), they are not on easy street.

The ratio of students to teachers hasn't materially changed -- and certainly not enough to explain the explosion in the cost of a public education. So where the heck is all the money going? It seems the answer is in administration. The ratio of administrators to teachers has skyrocketed. It is administrative bloat.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:42 AM
 
Location: la la land
27,180 posts, read 11,359,293 times
Reputation: 19285
Quote:
Originally Posted by ND_Irish View Post
Please read Dumbing Us Down by John Taylor Gatto. I have no objection to the facts you have cited above. However, additional money thrown at public education in its current state (if you can call it education at this point) will only serve to benefit the same people being enriched by the various things you have listed in your post. Who do you think benefits from all of the new textbooks, technology, and useless testing schemes which seem to appear every few years? It certainly is not your typical taxpayer and their kids. One only has to look at those interests which pushed Common Core curricula for all schools. Do you think their kids are going to schools using curricula aligned with Common Core? Out of curiosity, I did a search on the Web site for The Meadows Schools, the premier private school in Las Vegas, for the words Common Core. Not suprisingly, I could not locate any mention of those words on the school's Web site.

Further, I agree with you that the $750 million for a sports stadium could be invested in far better things or, better yet, it could simply not be collected at all and left in the pockets of those who will be taxed. However, I think it would be foolish to think that directing this large sum of money at the Clark County School District would result in it being spent wisely and, more importantly, on things which truly help educate the students in the district.

The bottom line is that the public school system is working well from the perspective of those at the top. They will continue to find ways to make it more difficult to learn subjects, such as reading and math, which are essential to developing critical thinking skills. Those critical thinking skills are what the majority need, yet currently lack, to prevent those items you have outlined in your post.
I think making school optional or forcing home schooling are probably among the 10 worst ideas anyone ever came up with.

As far as the Meadows School, you're right private schools are under no obligation to follow common core curriculum, but if you have the money to pay the tuition at Meadows you are probably comfortable knowing that your kids will get a quality education
Lower School $19,730
Middle School $21,700
Upper School $25,705
Do you realize that there are parents who earn less than $25,705 a year?

If you look at common core standards you will find that much of the curricula involves critical thinking. What Parents Should Know | Common Core State Standards Initiative
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:01 AM
 
434 posts, read 326,064 times
Reputation: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
I think making school optional or forcing home schooling are probably among the 10 worst ideas anyone ever came up with.

As far as the Meadows School, you're right private schools are under no obligation to follow common core curriculum, but if you have the money to pay the tuition at Meadows you are probably comfortable knowing that your kids will get a quality education
Lower School $19,730
Middle School $21,700
Upper School $25,705
Do you realize that there are parents who earn less than $25,705 a year?

If you look at common core standards you will find that much of the curricula involves critical thinking. What Parents Should Know | Common Core State Standards Initiative
Your assessment is totally wrong. Our kids would be better off without forced schooling. Furthermore, there is no such thing as forced homeschooling, and in fact, it's almost an oxymoron. By every meaningful metric, public education continues to produce worse outcomes year after year.

Do you have children? I do and have met many families in Clark County through our local homeschool group where the public school system has failed miserably. We happen to home educate our children (I do not like the term homeschool even though that is the term most people use), and we do it for non-religious reasons (e.g., flexibility and academics).

I also realize there are many families who earn less than $25,705 per year. You might be surprised to learn that many homeschooling families make tremendous financial sacrifices on very little income. That tends to be the rule in the homeschooling community, not the exception. Assuming they are willing to sacrifice unnecessary luxuries, I know for a fact that homeschooling families can do a better job educating their children on far less money per child than the public school system and in far less time per day.

Finally, you can believe what you want from the Common Core promoters. The facts are that Common Core is designed to benefit one group, the companies which produce the curricula for this latest fad.
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Old 09-12-2017, 12:19 PM
EA
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,472 posts, read 4,666,253 times
Reputation: 5911
Quote:
Originally Posted by ND_Irish View Post
Please read Dumbing Us Down by John Taylor Gatto. I have no objection to the facts you have cited above. However, additional money thrown at public education in its current state (if you can call it education at this point) will only serve to benefit the same people being enriched by the various things you have listed in your post.

You got to read all the comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
I would gladly pay for school if it actually taught people useful things. If they want me to pay for the garbage they currently serve I'd keep my kids home.

But as it stands, it costs us nothing to send the kids to school. BUT, we have to pay for lunches or send lunches we also have to pay for. We have to buy clothes and supplies. Then about once a week the schools send various fund raiser bs home with the kids. Once a month or so they have some assembly or program or open house where we go and they ask for money. Even in a state with a lottery that is called the education lottery that was supposed to fund schools 100% we got hit up for money constantly.

Sell cookies. Sell candy. Sell tshirts. Buy this. Buy that.
Teach my kids useful things and I'll make donations. No need for convoluted mlm schemes.
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Old 09-12-2017, 12:38 PM
 
Location: la la land
27,180 posts, read 11,359,293 times
Reputation: 19285
Quote:
Originally Posted by ND_Irish View Post
Your assessment is totally wrong. Our kids would be better off without forced schooling. Furthermore, there is no such thing as forced homeschooling, and in fact, it's almost an oxymoron. By every meaningful metric, public education continues to produce worse outcomes year after year.
Do you have children? I do and have met many families in Clark County through our local homeschool group where the public school system has failed miserably. We happen to home educate our children (I do not like the term homeschool even though that is the term most people use), and we do it for non-religious reasons (e.g., flexibility and academics).

I also realize there are many families who earn less than $25,705 per year. You might be surprised to learn that many homeschooling families make tremendous financial sacrifices on very little income. That tends to be the rule in the homeschooling community, not the exception. Assuming they are willing to sacrifice unnecessary luxuries, I know for a fact that homeschooling families can do a better job educating their children on far less money per child than the public school system and in far less time per day.

Finally, you can believe what you want from the Common Core promoters. The facts are that Common Core is designed to benefit one group, the companies which produce the curricula for this latest fad.
Gatto is a libertarian whack job, he doesn't provide evidence for any of his assertions in his three thinly disguised polemic attacks on education.

Homeschooling can be great, but please note I said "can be" because it requires at least one parent to be home during the day who is smart enough and interested enough to be able to educate a child. Not all parents are equally qualified to home school. And some people who can choose not to homeschool because they believe their children will be better prepared for adulthood by spending a good part of their day interacting with human beings other than just their siblings or parents.

I have two grandchildren in public school, in spite of what you are saying common core, it was developed around the principles of independent inquiry and analysis and critical thinking. There are literally hundreds of resources available to support that if you don't believe me.

If I were to venture a guess, you are upset about the death of Nevada’s ESA private school voucher program
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Old 09-12-2017, 01:51 PM
 
434 posts, read 326,064 times
Reputation: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
You got to read all the comments.
I did read all the comments. The one statement you made with which I take issue is the following: "But as it stands, it costs us nothing to send the kids to school." It absolutely does cost you to send the kids to school. There are the direct costs you cited which tend to cost home educators far less since we really do not participate in the back-to-school shopping spree each summer. Then there are the indirect costs. Everyone can place a value on their time, both parents and children. There are the costs emotionally if a child is bullied or is not the typical student (i.e., gifted or special needs). There are opportunity costs. All of the time which is wasted sitting at a desk could be put to better use. We spend just a few hours each morning on reading, writing, and arithmetic. My kids have the rest of the day to explore their own interests and figure out on their own what they are passionate about. If we had never allowed our children to have free time and kept them in the rat race of school, after-school activities, and homework, we never would have found out that one of our children is a talented flute player while the other is a talented tap dancer and creative writer. They both work with instructors during the week to hone their skills in those areas both in individual lessons and classes, and the best part is that our family is not completely worn out due to all of the nonsensical demands of school. We also are not driving their current interests. Should they decide to pursue something else because flute and tap dancing are no longer of interest, then that is fine with both my wife and me.

While Las Vegas routinely is criticized about its educational environment, I can say that we are quite happy with the number of educational opportunities outside of the school system. We have found many good instructors in a wide array of subjects from writing to music to dance. In fact, once our kids are a little older, UNLV and CSN offer high school kids the opportunity to take college classes. As expensive as college currently is, I think this is a great resource for anyone who has kids who wish to go to college since most colleges will give you credit for a college class you have taken that was offered to the general student body.

Finally, I would encourage you to read Dumbing Us Down by John Taylor Gatto. I really think you would find it interesting.
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Old 09-12-2017, 02:04 PM
EA
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,472 posts, read 4,666,253 times
Reputation: 5911
I did bring up school clothes cost.....

Life is tough. I am not going to keep my kids home in a bubble because there are bullies in school. My kids will tough it out and either get stringer because of it, of fail miserably.
If they can't hack it, then they suck at life and will never make it anyway.
If they do make it, then they will be prepared for the big kick in the butt the real world will give them.
The crap boss. The sneaky coworker. The moron in line at the bank. The crap cop that pulls them over.

I got bullied in school but you know what, I don't take crap from anyone because of it. I learned how to deal with the problems life throws at me because of my experiences growing up. I can deal with a lot more than your typical homeschooled kid, I can tell you that much for sure.


My only issue with school is the curriculum. There's little that's actually useful.



I firmly disagree with the notion that common core helps critical thinking. I see my kids homework and it's horrible.
It's pure garbage. I understand what it is supposed to do. But it doesn't do it.
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Old 09-12-2017, 02:12 PM
 
434 posts, read 326,064 times
Reputation: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
Gatto is a libertarian whack job, he doesn't provide evidence for any of his assertions in his three thinly disguised polemic attacks on education.

Homeschooling can be great, but please note I said "can be" because it requires at least one parent to be home during the day who is smart enough and interested enough to be able to educate a child. Not all parents are equally qualified to home school. And some people who can choose not to homeschool because they believe their children will be better prepared for adulthood by spending a good part of their day interacting with human beings other than just their siblings or parents.

I have two grandchildren in public school, in spite of what you are saying common core, it was developed around the principles of independent inquiry and analysis and critical thinking. There are literally hundreds of resources available to support that if you don't believe me.

If I were to venture a guess, you are upset about the death of Nevada’s ESA private school voucher program
Actually, you must be a product of the public school establishment given how uninformed your post is. First of all, your assertion about John Taylor Gatto is nothing more than a straw man. I fail to see you giving any credible, fact-based argument against his positions and observations as a public school teacher in New York City for many years.

Next, you must not have ever been around any homeschoolers. Once again, you take a stereotype likely drawn up by the public school establishment to portray all homeschoolers as living in isolation. Nothing could be further from the truth. Unlike school students who sit at their desk for most of the day, our kids actually are out in the community on almost a daily basis interacting with people of all ages whether it is at a weekly park day or on one of many field trips across Las Vegas ranging from a tour of a television station to exploration at Springs Preserve. I have news for you. That is real life. Real life is not being cooped up in an overcrowded classroom with people who are all the same age, and likely the same socio-economic background, having their day directed by one individual. I certainly know that the employees of my business were of all different ages and backgrounds. At least in our fairly large homeschool community, the people, both adults and kids, are of all different ages and socio-economic backgrounds. I am glad my kids are able to interact with so many different people because there is a lot of learning that occurs with that as well.

I can cite just as many prominent sources who will shred the supposed virtues of Common Core. Here is one from a math professor, and grandmother, from UC Berkeley: https://www.wsj.com/articles/marina-...rse-1407283282.

Finally, you also are wrong about the Nevada ESAs. My family and many other homeschooling families did not shed a tear when they were eliminated. Homeschool advocates worked very hard to ensure that families which took ESA money were not legally classified as homeschoolers. If you had bothered to read the legislation, you would have known this and likely not have concluded your post the way you did. Homeschoolers value their freedom to educate their kids as they best see fit. Nevada's ESA program would have required families to use pre-approved programs for their kids and would have required oversight by the state. The ESAs were a subsidy for the private school system; almost all of the homeschoolers we know had no interest in ESAs.
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Old 09-12-2017, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Mid-Atlantic
22,706 posts, read 21,760,954 times
Reputation: 27757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
Public education is a particularly difficult nut to crack, and lots of blood has been shed trying to make things better.

The price tag of public education has skyrocketed for no apparent reason. We have thrown tons of money at the problem trying to make things better.

The results have been failures. Not merely failures -- but spectacular failures.

For example:

Where the heck is all that money going? It isn't going to teacher compensation:

Clearly, teachers are not getting rich. Even when you add in the value of teachers' public sector pensions & health care (easily several million dollars per teacher), they are not on easy street.

The ratio of students to teachers hasn't materially changed -- and certainly not enough to explain the explosion in the cost of a public education. So where the heck is all the money going? It seems the answer is in administration. The ratio of administrators to teachers has skyrocketed. It is administrative bloat.
Where my son went to middle and high school, not Nevada, there was always some sort of improvement or addition needed. A lot of money is spent on computers and other electronics, auditoriums, pools, air conditioning, and (OMG) mold remediation. Children who didn't have a computer at home were issued a laptop. It's expensive.
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