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Old 01-05-2019, 05:01 PM
 
355 posts, read 157,958 times
Reputation: 238

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
So if it costs you 100k to get a degree, and you make 120k a year with said degree, is that not a worthwhile investment?
If you agree to the terms, receive the degree, how is it a scam?
Probably not, considering $100K will only get you a Bachelors. Even if you manage to land a $120K/yr job right off the bat(you won't), in most states you'll still be paying 50%+ of that back in taxes. I think its much more realistic that you'll end up with a $35-50K job out the gate.

Its a scam because they schools already know the degrees they are peddling are valueless, yet they continue to sell them anyways.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
Your condo analogy fails pretty hard. The paint hides the mold. It's deception.
The degree program makes NO promise of employment. It's not hiding anything. Career statistics are everywhere. Nothing is hidden. There's no lies or false promises.
What's the point of getting a degree at all if there is no job at the end of your education? Why sell someone something that is suppose to make them more marketable for employment, when it does nothing of the sort?


Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
Government involvement is the single biggest contributor to tuition prices.
Competition is the second biggest. Schools want to attract students so they offer amenities which drives up the prices. This will continue as long as people keep taking out loans or otherwise paying for college.
People have always taken out loans or worked several part time jobs to pay for college. I don't remember there being any significant change in government involvement with education happening in the early 2000's when tuitions began to rise, rapidly. But, just what could have happened that would cause those tuitions to rise so rapidly? What could it possibly be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
The fact of the matter is college is a business. The purpose of business is to profit selling a product or service to customers. College owes you a piece of paper that says you are qualified to do X. Nothing more. It does not owe you a job. It does not owe you any quality of life. You got exactly what you paid for. A piece of paper stating that you are qualified for X.
I'm not sure colleges have a corporate charter that guarantees maximizing returns to investors on wall street like a trade business would. Nearly all higher education institutions are also heavily subsidized by tax money. You've also missed something here, when I was speaking of educational institutions, I wasn't just speaking of institutions of higher learning. The same factors are involved in education at the K-12 level, too. You know, teachers' union strikes for more and more money, political indoctrination...


Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
Let's try this from another perspective. If you go to college for electrical engineering. You got a scholarship covering most of it and paid the other 5,000 dollars out of pocket. You have no debt as a result.
There is little to no guarantee that one will be given a scholarship, grant, or even a proper student loan with which to attend. To put an even finer point on it, if you look like you are "white" and your parents have any job at all, you won't be getting jack ****.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
Is it the college's fault if you show up to an interview at GE late, high, and wearing a big ol shirt that says weed, and don't get the job? Or is it your fault for being an idiot?
The college gave you the paper and skills needed for the job. YOU bungled the interview with your choices.
This sounds completely made up. I used to be in a position of hiring people and I've never had a college grad come into the office for an interview even close to any manner of which you speak. Being late could happen to anyone, not sure what your point is what that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
You went to college. The college got paid. You got the paper you were promised. You got the skills and knowledge you were promised. So how is that a scam?
Because, if they gave you a degree in an unmarketable skill, then they've essentially given you nothing. Also remember, the college admissions and advisers also assist the student in degree track and class selection. The potential clientele are typically young, naive, inexperienced, and may have the wrong idea about the marketability of their skills due to things like media influence, or may read into job placement statistics not fully understanding the real world impact of the percentages they are reading about.

This is where the guidance counselors should be guiding the students away from these useless degrees, but obviously they are not doing that. You do the math.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
Now, I will say that there are some scam colleges out there. Patriot Bible university for example. But even then, a 3 second google search shows that they are unaccredited.
Frankly, unless you are going into STEM at this point, virtually all colleges are a scam. I think there is a large percentage of people out there that aren't really fit for the college level. They simply don't have the capacity to compete successfully in that arena. The solution is not to sell everyone worthless degrees to make them feel good.

These same people would have been our Blue Collar/Factory/Trades people but entering those fields is actively discouraged and/or impossible at this point and has been for nearly 20 years now. Where do you expect these people to go when there are no other options?
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Old 01-05-2019, 05:23 PM
 
355 posts, read 157,958 times
Reputation: 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
Boomers are mostly right to blame Millennials for not being successful. They're choosing to be losers. They're willingly taking on debt to go after jobs that don't exist. They're actively making bad decisions.
Sure boomers raised some of them, but at a certain point you can't blame your parents anymore.
You're an adult. Start making adult decisions.
Millennials are really just now starting to gain positions of influence in both the political and economic spectrums. At that, very little. Most Boomers have been at or beyond retirement age in both the political and economic forums for a while now, yet they refuse to step down, refuse to hand the reigns to anyone else. As a result, the X'ers never got to move up into middle management yet, and the Millennials on the bottom are still sitting on the ground floor or damn near it all these years later.

If you say a typical career is suppose to be about 30-35 years to retirement... I already spent 17 years working in IT before throwing in the towel because there is no advancement at all for the reasons I stated above. At 17 years in I ought to have been somewhere in middle management by now, but the Boomers in charge refuse to retire, so nobody else in the chain of command ever gets to move up. The Gen-X management above me voiced similar frustrations about their own situation. At some point I came to the realization that these people have absolutely no intention of ever letting anyone else drive the chariot until they are dead and gone.

Nancy Pelosi just got re-elected Speaker of the House at _78_ years old. Shouldn't she have retired 13 years ago?

The Boomers, through sheer power of numbers, snatched over all the political and economic power in the 90s and have shown no signs yet of moving on to retirement. They've had and will continue to have into the foreseeable future all of the political and economic power. They've retained these powers for much longer than other generations have.

Even in retirement, they refuse to go off quietly into the sunset. I sell online these days, and you see lots of Boomers on the eBay and Amazon message boards stating that they decided to start selling again "just to stay busy" or "because they were bored with retirement" and even admit that they will sell items at or even below cost because they're really not doing it to make money, they're doing it to keep themselves busy! I could only imagine how they would have felt if their parents decided to come out of retirement and setup say, a furniture shop, next door to theirs but sold everything at cost "just to stay busy." Even for the ones who do retire, nobody else is allowed to have a piece of the pie. There is just no end to the greed.
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Old 01-05-2019, 05:30 PM
EA
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,627 posts, read 4,808,247 times
Reputation: 6068
Quote:
Originally Posted by equid0x View Post
Probably not, considering $100K will only get you a Bachelors. Even if you manage to land a $120K/yr job right off the bat(you won't), in most states you'll still be paying 50%+ of that back in taxes. I think its much more realistic that you'll end up with a $35-50K job out the gate.

Its a scam because they schools already know the degrees they are peddling are valueless, yet they continue to sell them anyways.




What's the point of getting a degree at all if there is no job at the end of your education? Why sell someone something that is suppose to make them more marketable for employment, when it does nothing of the sort?




People have always taken out loans or worked several part time jobs to pay for college. I don't remember there being any significant change in government involvement with education happening in the early 2000's when tuitions began to rise, rapidly. But, just what could have happened that would cause those tuitions to rise so rapidly? What could it possibly be?



I'm not sure colleges have a corporate charter that guarantees maximizing returns to investors on wall street like a trade business would. Nearly all higher education institutions are also heavily subsidized by tax money. You've also missed something here, when I was speaking of educational institutions, I wasn't just speaking of institutions of higher learning. The same factors are involved in education at the K-12 level, too. You know, teachers' union strikes for more and more money, political indoctrination...




There is little to no guarantee that one will be given a scholarship, grant, or even a proper student loan with which to attend. To put an even finer point on it, if you look like you are "white" and your parents have any job at all, you won't be getting jack ****.



This sounds completely made up. I used to be in a position of hiring people and I've never had a college grad come into the office for an interview even close to any manner of which you speak. Being late could happen to anyone, not sure what your point is what that.



Because, if they gave you a degree in an unmarketable skill, then they've essentially given you nothing. Also remember, the college admissions and advisers also assist the student in degree track and class selection. The potential clientele are typically young, naive, inexperienced, and may have the wrong idea about the marketability of their skills due to things like media influence, or may read into job placement statistics not fully understanding the real world impact of the percentages they are reading about.

This is where the guidance counselors should be guiding the students away from these useless degrees, but obviously they are not doing that. You do the math.




Frankly, unless you are going into STEM at this point, virtually all colleges are a scam. I think there is a large percentage of people out there that aren't really fit for the college level. They simply don't have the capacity to compete successfully in that arena. The solution is not to sell everyone worthless degrees to make them feel good.

These same people would have been our Blue Collar/Factory/Trades people but entering those fields is actively discouraged and/or impossible at this point and has been for nearly 20 years now. Where do you expect these people to go when there are no other options?


1 Average cost of a masters is 35,000
https://www.mastersprogramsguide.com...s-degree-cost/

2 If I sell you a broken car that you want, is that a scam? I told you it's broken. You knew it was broken. You got what you wanted. I got paid. NOT A SCAM.

3 People get degrees because they want to. My sister in law has 5 of them and doesn't work at all. Lots of people get degrees for the experience. Some people enjoy college. Some people enjoy learning. A degree is EDUCATION not employment. As long as you learn what you were promised you get what you paid for.

4 https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibr...orts/sr733.pdf

5 You answered number 4, partially, with number 5. It's the subsidies and tuition guarantees that drive up cost. But Harvard is a corporation as are many other colleges. ALL private colleges are businesses.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2...ion-explained/

6 You completely missed the point there, Buddy. The point wasn't the scholarship. I put in the scholarship to rule out variables. Also nice racism.

7 You mean a scenario in a hypothetical situation is made up? GASP. GASP I tell you.
The point is even with an in demand degree, it is up to the person to get themselves employed.
I have managed businesses and had people come in reeking of weed, late, and wearing inappropriate clothing. In the carpenter's union I've seen people show up to jobsites without any ppe, 5 minutes til time to go home, to speak to the foreman about a job. Needless to say those people didn't get the job. They might have been the best employees the world has ever seen, but because they made bad choices they missed the opportunity to get employed. Same goes for people choosing their degree. If you choose a useless degree expect a useless career in fast food.

8 BUT, as I keep saying, YOU ARE NOT PAYING FOR A JOB, you are paying for knowledge and skills.
Guidance councilors are one of the perks colleges offer to attract students. They are not there to get you a job. They are there to offer guidance.
Now, I will say that I would like to see the government stop issuing loans for useless degrees. BUT I do not want the government dictating what a college can offer. I would prefer the government stop paying for college all together.

9 I listed numerous viable degree paths with 6 figure salaries post graduation. Yes STEM is in deman, so it would be wise for people to choose stem degrees. However, people choosing other degrees are not being scammed. They are being sold knowledge and skills.

You sound extremely entitled which is why you're having a hard time grasping personal responsibility and choice.
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Old 01-05-2019, 05:51 PM
EA
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,627 posts, read 4,808,247 times
Reputation: 6068
Quote:
Originally Posted by equid0x View Post
Millennials are really just now starting to gain positions of influence in both the political and economic spectrums. At that, very little. Most Boomers have been at or beyond retirement age in both the political and economic forums for a while now, yet they refuse to step down, refuse to hand the reigns to anyone else. As a result, the X'ers never got to move up into middle management yet, and the Millennials on the bottom are still sitting on the ground floor or damn near it all these years later.

If you say a typical career is suppose to be about 30-35 years to retirement... I already spent 17 years working in IT before throwing in the towel because there is no advancement at all for the reasons I stated above. At 17 years in I ought to have been somewhere in middle management by now, but the Boomers in charge refuse to retire, so nobody else in the chain of command ever gets to move up. The Gen-X management above me voiced similar frustrations about their own situation. At some point I came to the realization that these people have absolutely no intention of ever letting anyone else drive the chariot until they are dead and gone.

Nancy Pelosi just got re-elected Speaker of the House at _78_ years old. Shouldn't she have retired 13 years ago?

The Boomers, through sheer power of numbers, snatched over all the political and economic power in the 90s and have shown no signs yet of moving on to retirement. They've had and will continue to have into the foreseeable future all of the political and economic power. They've retained these powers for much longer than other generations have.

Even in retirement, they refuse to go off quietly into the sunset. I sell online these days, and you see lots of Boomers on the eBay and Amazon message boards stating that they decided to start selling again "just to stay busy" or "because they were bored with retirement" and even admit that they will sell items at or even below cost because they're really not doing it to make money, they're doing it to keep themselves busy! I could only imagine how they would have felt if their parents decided to come out of retirement and setup say, a furniture shop, next door to theirs but sold everything at cost "just to stay busy." Even for the ones who do retire, nobody else is allowed to have a piece of the pie. There is just no end to the greed.





I am 1000000% for 4 year term limits on all elected government positions.

As far as boomers not retiring, yes that is part of the problem.
But did boomers and other generations also not face that problem?
In fact it's been a popular movie and tv trope for the old boss to never retire for longer than I've been alive.

So you chose a career in IT, who made you do that? Did they have a gun or a knife?
Did it ever occur to you that maybe you're not qualified for management and that's why you didn't move up?
I've seen companies MAKE positions for people to move up because the company valued those people.
Maybe you weren't making yourself valuable enough. That would be my guess.



This is why I stick with performance parts. There's a MAP dictating what sellers can sell their products for.
I ONLY sell products with MAP or proprietary products. But yeah, that is pretty crappy for them to sell below market value for the fun.


I hate people in general. Every generation. They're all scum. They all have their issues. But the fact of the matter is, no matter what obstacles arise, there are people making it just fine.
You know how many times I've made bad choices in my life? Hundreds. You know how many things beyond my control have set me back? Hundreds.
I'm not letting anything short of death stop me from succeeding. And anyone that does the same will be rewarded no matter what odds are against them.
Stop being a victim and start taking charge of your own life.
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Old 01-05-2019, 06:10 PM
 
355 posts, read 157,958 times
Reputation: 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
1 Average cost of a masters is 35,000
https://www.mastersprogramsguide.com...s-degree-cost/
What's the median? Also, that cost for a master sounds suspiciously low. Remember, people will need to roll books, supplies, equipment, etc into the cost of that loan. Maybe thats the cost of the additional 2 years of school alone with no other costs considered. I will also point it, this is on top of the $100K you already spent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
2 If I sell you a broken car that you want, is that a scam? I told you it's broken. You knew it was broken. You got what you wanted. I got paid. NOT A SCAM.
The worthless degree is equivalent to the broken car in the analogy. If the schools were telling the students that their tap dancing degree classes were worthless, do you think anyone would be getting them? The problem with your analogy is that the schools are NOT representing the worthless degrees as the "broken car." It's one thing to buy a broken car knowing that its broken. Its another to buy a working car only to find out its broken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
3 People get degrees because they want to. My sister in law has 5 of them and doesn't work at all. Lots of people get degrees for the experience. Some people enjoy college. Some people enjoy learning. A degree is EDUCATION not employment. As long as you learn what you were promised you get what you paid for.
Most will have difficulty funding a single degree, much less several. If you can afford to get 5 degrees and not work than I would say its a pretty safe bet that you are independently wealthy and don't really need them in the first place. I agree that there are some people who enjoy college, but I think this personality type is somewhat rare. Probably mostly limited to people who are in academia as a career.

Its more like selling someone a Lamborghini at full price, but with no engine or drive-train. I guess you sold them *something* but that something is pretty much worthless.

I'm not going to sit down and read a 59 page study right now, best rest assured whatever the Federal Reserve has to say, they're saying it for the benefit of one entity: The Federal Reserve.

I don't even want to get into what I think about the viewpoints of an institution whose sole purpose is to print and lend money to the Federal Government, thereby issuing a debt to the American People that can only by repaid by asking the Federal Reserve to print and lend us more money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
5 You answered number 4, partially, with number 5. It's the subsidies and tuition guarantees that drive up cost. But Harvard is a corporation as are many other colleges. ALL private colleges are businesses.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2...ion-explained/
I realize that colleges operate as businesses, but there was a time in the country when the vast majority of those businesses did not operate for a profit, or only for a very small one. Its easy for Harvard or Cornell or Princeton to publish such things when all such institutions in the Ivy League cater to a demographic that is either there by connections or can pretty much afford to pay anything charged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
6 You completely missed the point there, Buddy. The point wasn't the scholarship. I put in the scholarship to rule out variables. Also nice racism.
Not racism, reality. I'm not a snowflake, so I can handle such a level of introspective about how the world actually works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
7 You mean a scenario in a hypothetical situation is made up? GASP. GASP I tell you.
The point is even with an in demand degree, it is up to the person to get themselves employed.
I have managed businesses and had people come in reeking of weed, late, and wearing inappropriate clothing. In the carpenter's union I've seen people show up to jobsites without any ppe, 5 minutes til time to go home, to speak to the foreman about a job. Needless to say those people didn't get the job. They might have been the best employees the world has ever seen, but because they made bad choices they missed the opportunity to get employed. Same goes for people choosing their degree. If you choose a useless degree expect a useless career in fast food.
Well, we were talking about college graduates. College graduates probably do not show up to work "reeking of weed, late, and wearing inappropriate clothing." Working class Laborers are a whole different demographic and a whole different ballgame. I have a family member who is a Foreman for a large electric contractor and I have heard quite a bit about the quality of the work in the labor segment, but lets face it - Laborers typically don't have any college degrees which is why they are working in the trades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
Guidance councilors are one of the perks colleges offer to attract students. They are not there to get you a job. They are there to offer guidance.
Even when that guidance is only to line their own pockets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
9 I listed numerous viable degree paths with 6 figure salaries post graduation. Yes STEM is in deman, so it would be wise for people to choose stem degrees. However, people choosing other degrees are not being scammed. They are being sold knowledge and skills.
Yes, unmarketable knowledge and skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
You sound extremely entitled which is why you're having a hard time grasping personal responsibility and choice.
That's quite a set of assumptions to make considering you've never met me, and know very little about me.
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Old 01-05-2019, 06:23 PM
 
355 posts, read 157,958 times
Reputation: 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
But did boomers and other generations also not face that problem?
I don't think so. The Boomers were significantly larger than their predecessors. A good number of new positions had to be created, just to support the Boomers, themselves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
So you chose a career in IT, who made you do that? Did they have a gun or a knife?
Did it ever occur to you that maybe you're not qualified for management and that's why you didn't move up?
I've seen companies MAKE positions for people to move up because the company valued those people.
Maybe you weren't making yourself valuable enough. That would be my guess.
No. The Operations Manager passed away and I was asked to temporarily fill in that position for over a year. However, I was never granted that title. The position was eliminated upon his death, but I continued handling his and my own workload under the same title for some time after that. I did ask about being promoted but was told that it wouldn't be fair to the other Managers who had been waiting for years to move up. At this same time the company I worked for was bought out by a much larger international corp which had the same problems, only on a much larger scale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
This is why I stick with performance parts. There's a MAP dictating what sellers can sell their products for.
I ONLY sell products with MAP or proprietary products. But yeah, that is pretty crappy for them to sell below market value for the fun.
I looked into the area of my own expertise, but found a significant number of sellers who were selling grey market or counterfeit product significantly below MAP. The same categories are gated on Amazon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EA View Post
I'm not letting anything short of death stop me from succeeding. And anyone that does the same will be rewarded no matter what odds are against them.
Stop being a victim and start taking charge of your own life.
Your positive attitude is good. I'm not claiming to be a victim, only stating my personal experience.
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Old Yesterday, 03:52 PM
EA
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,627 posts, read 4,808,247 times
Reputation: 6068
Rich guy



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aKLPr9epQQ
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Old Yesterday, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Studio City, CA 91604
2,236 posts, read 2,637,757 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuterion View Post
Baby Boomers are a generation of "self-made" people who gained success due to government hand-outs provided by the New Deal who then closed the door for everyone else by buying into the neo-con rhetoric of lower taxes for the rich, anti-union, gutting of entitlements, and deregulation espoused by Reagan. These idiots basically rode the gravy train to Successville and once they made it they started to demonize the gravy train and actively advocated for its dissolution. Now Baby Boomers demonize Millennials for not being as successful totally oblivious to the fact that they are the reason why!
Exactly! ... I'd Rep you by 1000 if I could!
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Old Yesterday, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Henderson, NV
850 posts, read 514,569 times
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This thread is off the rails.
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Old Yesterday, 04:41 PM
 
27,441 posts, read 38,703,392 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkstring View Post
sorry, got you beat. I joined 9-30-2006.
06-27-2006
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