[ClarkGrisowld]

Originally Posted by sheriff

Table games are table games-------over a quarter's time, the win percentage built-in does not change. The only factor that can drastically change the hold is for a whale to win or lose a large amount,and can dramitically change the win %----especially if the casino does not get play from a large number of premium players. For any casino to hold 24% in a quarter means they have beaten a whale or two out of millions, but eventually this tide will turn, and in the long run the win % will end up at @ 13%. Only 3-4 joints will let players wager in the $100k and up range per hand.

But Wynn has average well above that for 6 quarters, nearly 24% on average. They report their expected hold as between 21-24% because they know their clientele. Do you think they report that just because they think they'll be luckier than average, or do you think maybe it's because there are justifiable reasons why it should be well above the average? 6 quarters (and probably more if you go back and look-up 2005) is enough of a trend to conclude Wynn will hold higher than the average casino. Again, that LV gaming data is an average, and by definition there are properties above that. Wynn is consistently above that precisely because they attract the high-end clientele. And it's not just Wynn. The higher-end properties that attract the higher-end clientele all have holds in the 20% range or a bit more.

It's not just whales. They do attract more whales than most properties, but they also attract higher-end players in general. Those people play longer, which is why Wynn's hold is higher.

You can keep telling me what Wynn's hold should be, and I can keep pointing you to their quarterly and annual reports which shows it is consistently above those averages. This is an argument you simply can't win.

[sheriff]

Originally Posted by ClarkGrisowld

But Wynn has average well above that for 6 quarters, nearly 24% on average. They report their expected hold as between 21-24% because they know their clientele. Do you think they report that just because they think they'll be luckier than average, or do you think maybe it's because there are justifiable reasons why it should be well above the average? 6 quarters (and probably more if you go back and look-up 2005) is enough of a trend to conclude Wynn will hold higher than the average casino. Again, that LV gaming data is an average, and by definition there are properties above that. Wynn is consistently above that precisely because they attract the high-end clientele. And it's not just Wynn. The higher-end properties that attract the higher-end clientele all have holds in the 20% range or a bit more.

It's not just whales. They do attract more whales than most properties, but they also attract higher-end players in general. Those people play longer, which is why Wynn's hold is higher.

You can keep telling me what Wynn's hold should be, and I can keep pointing you to their quarterly and annual reports which shows it is consistently above those averages. This is an argument you simply can't win.

According to wynn's 10k, their win % is calculated BEFORE comissions, and discount, which can easily run 10-20%. Of course a whale with a $2mil credit line is given $2.2mil, with obligation to repay only $2mil, of course the win % will be higher. Smoke and mirrors.

[ClarkGrisowld]

Originally Posted by sheriff

According to wynn's 10k, their win % is calculated BEFORE comissions, and discount, which can easily run 10-20%. Of course a whale with a $2mil credit line is given $2.2mil, with obligation to repay only $2mil, of course the win % will be higher. Smoke and mirrors.

No, not smoke and mirrors. EVERY casino calculates hold that way. They report both numbers. Commissions and discounts are discretionary/negotiable. You don't muddle the picture with discretionary discounts or you wouldn't know if luck or expenses were driving performance. Hold is calculated as win divided by drop. By the way, from MGM's annual report:
"Gaming revenue indicators – table games drop and slots handle (volume indicators);“win” or “hold” percentage, which is not fully controllable by us. Our normal table games win percentage is in the range of 18% to 22% of table games drop"
So you see, no smoke and mirrors and Wynn does have a higher hold as obviously MGM has a more diverse clientele. If Wynn had reported win net of discounts (and that's not how casinos report), that number would still have been lower than its historical average.

First, you claimed Wynn had a disastrous quarter. When it was pointed out that it was driven by lower than average hold, you responded by saying it was well above average. It wasn't (for Wynn), and it is irrelevant. I showed you the win percent was lower for Wynn than it has been. Bottom line is their lower revenue was driven by lower house win.

[jfkIII]

Originally Posted by sheriff

Say it ain't so----------20% of the work force at the glorious Trump Towers LV have already been given their walking papers: Trouble at Trump Towers

Any truth to the rumor that The Donald was very upstanding about it, and called each and every laid-off worker in to personally tell them: "You're fired"?

[sheriff]

Originally Posted by ClarkGrisowld

But Wynn has average well above that for 6 quarters, nearly 24% on average. They report their expected hold as between 21-24% because they know their clientele. Do you think they report that just because they think they'll be luckier than average, or do you think maybe it's because there are justifiable reasons why it should be well above the average? 6 quarters (and probably more if you go back and look-up 2005) is enough of a trend to conclude Wynn will hold higher than the average casino. Again, that LV gaming data is an average, and by definition there are properties above that. Wynn is consistently above that precisely because they attract the high-end clientele. And it's not just Wynn. The higher-end properties that attract the higher-end clientele all have holds in the 20% range or a bit more.

It's not just whales. They do attract more whales than most properties, but they also attract higher-end players in general. Those people play longer, which is why Wynn's hold is higher.

You can keep telling me what Wynn's hold should be, and I can keep pointing you to their quarterly and annual reports which shows it is consistently above those averages. This is an argument you simply can't win.

The SEC 10k means NOTHING----------the only audit that matters is NV Gaming Control------------TABLE GAMES hold @ 13%---PERIOD>

[sheriff]

Originally Posted by jfkIII

Any truth to the rumor that The Donald was very upstanding about it, and called each and every laid-off worker in to personally tell them: "You're fired"?

Just imagine how Phil Ruffin, who no doubt provided the land and money to build this project feels. While Ruffin's worth is estimated at over $2bil, he must feel he was hustled by the "donald".

[ClarkGrisowld]

Originally Posted by sheriff

The SEC 10k means NOTHING----------the only audit that matters is NV Gaming Control------------TABLE GAMES hold @ 13%---PERIOD>

OK...Let me explain it to you. The Gaming Control report is net of discounts, but casinos always report hold before discounts. Hold has a technical definition of win/drop(or handle). Discounts, technically, are viewed like comps as expenses. As I said, discounts are discretionary and negotiable and are more accurately viewed as cost for customer acquisition/retention. It's a separate issue and a controllable variance whereas hold is not controllable. None of this, of course, is relevant to the fact that Wynn's decline was driven by lower win.

And, ummm, I'll put more stock in the SEC than the gaming control board. It's not like LV has a history of corruption or anything. SEC requires auditors to review each quarter's results, and I promise the GCB isn't in nearly that often with 3000 licenses and some 700 auditors. The gaming licenses are worth far too much for the casinos to engage in any smoke and mirrors schenanigans. And if you think the GCB wouldn't take issue with misleading or erroneous SEC reporting you are mistaken.

[sheriff]

Originally Posted by ClarkGrisowld

OK...Let me explain it to you. The Gaming Control report is net of discounts, but casinos always report hold before discounts. Hold has a technical definition of win/drop(or handle). Discounts, technically, are viewed like comps as expenses. As I said, discounts are discretionary and negotiable and are more accurately viewed as cost for customer acquisition/retention. It's a separate issue and a controllable variance whereas hold is not controllable. None of this, of course, is relevant to the fact that Wynn's decline was driven by lower win.

And, ummm, I'll put more stock in the SEC than the gaming control board. It's not like LV has a history of corruption or anything. SEC requires auditors to review each quarter's results, and I promise the GCB isn't in nearly that often with 3000 licenses and some 700 auditors. The gaming licenses are worth far too much for the casinos to engage in any smoke and mirrors schenanigans. And if you think the GCB wouldn't take issue with misleading or erroneous SEC reporting you are mistaken.

NV Gaming Control Board is the ONLY audit that matters------------TAXES are calculated on GROSS revenue--funds put in the drop box. The SEC could care less about this, and 10K's are a projection of what the property's future expectations are. Casinos pay from3.5% to 6.75% taxes based on GROSS revenue----that which is dropped on the game, win, lose, or draw. The SEC has no interest or jurisdiction in this matter. TABLE GAME WIN IN NV averages @ 13%.

[ClarkGrisowld]

Originally Posted by sheriff

NV Gaming Control Board is the ONLY audit that matters------------TAXES are calculated on GROSS revenue--funds put in the drop box. The SEC could care less about this, and 10K's are a projection of what the property's future expectations are. Casinos pay from3.5% to 6.75% taxes based on GROSS revenue----that which is dropped on the game, win, lose, or draw. The SEC has no interest or jurisdiction in this matter. TABLE GAME WIN IN NV averages @ 13%.

Wow...You just showed you don't even understand what a 10K is. I think I'm done with this argument.

Yeah, taxes are paid on gross revenue. What does that have to do with the driver behind Wynn's earnings this quarter? Wynn's table win is typically 21-24%. That is their hold. That is what they pay tax on.

And you still don't get it. That table you are reading from even tells you win% is adjusted for credit play. It IS NOT what is typically referred to as hold.

LOL, you don't even understand what drop is. That is simply the amount of the buy-in. Casinos are taxed on what they win, not drop. Gross revenue is win, before any discounts or credit. Drop does not equal revenue. Stop yourself before you look more foolish.

By the way, the SEC cares a little bit about the calculation and reporting of revenues. But then, I wouldn't expect you to know that since you don't even seem to understand what a 10K is.

[sheriff]

Originally Posted by ClarkGrisowld

Wow...You just showed you don't even understand what a 10K is. I think I'm done with this argument.

Yeah, taxes are paid on gross revenue. What does that have to do with the driver behind Wynn's earnings this quarter? Wynn's table win is typically 21-24%. That is their hold. That is what they pay tax on.

And you still don't get it. That table you are reading from even tells you win% is adjusted for credit play. It IS NOT what is typically referred to as hold.

LOL, you don't even understand what drop is. That is simply the amount of the buy-in. Casinos are taxed on what they win, not drop. Gross revenue is win, before any discounts or credit. Drop does not equal revenue. Stop yourself before you look more foolish.

By the way, the SEC cares a little bit about the calculation and reporting of revenues. But then, I wouldn't expect you to know that since you don't even seem to understand what a 10K is.

YOU really don't get it do YOU? TAXES are paid on gross revenue-------NOT win %. GROSS REVENUE IS DROP-----GET IT?