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I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said with the exception of the unions. The government unions are nothing but leaches. Government workers expect free health care, sick days, vacation days, and pensions while most private sector workers get none of this. I certainly do not feel my taxes should go up so these people can get all these perks.
LVD, your sentiments about unions are, unfortunately, gaining a lot of ground these days. The problem is that a lot of misinformation is being spread by the right wing media. As I mentioned, unions are seen as major supporters of Democratic candidates. If the Republicans can disable unions, they will cut a major source of Democratic funding. Then, all pro-business, pro-wealthy, and anti-labor legislation will have a better chance of passing.
Now, regardless of your personal view of unions, Democrats, etc., the fact is that this issue has its gray areas.
Labor issues have one major proponent - Unions. Issues regarding job safety, discrimination policies, breaks, benefits, child labor laws and such are all the result of union battles. if you have a coffee break or bathroom break, or sick days, somewhere along the line a union fought for that.
As a member of the teacher's union in NYC, I see that my union is not perfect. I don't always agree with their decisions. However, the alternative is a living nightmare. While there are flaws and some teachers receive undeserved protection, 98% of our members are honest, hard working people. Even with a union, we can sometimes go for 3 hours without being allowed to use a bathroom, work in classrooms with no windows and bad ventilation (what fool designed rooms for children like this is beyond me), have rooms with no heat in winter and no A/C when temps are above 85 degrees. Also, ours is the only profession that requires a Master's Degree ($15,000 - $50,000 cost) to keep your job but offers no reimbursement. We all chose to be teachers and knew the sacrifices, but we still need some form of protection.
Of course, there are crooked union officers, and bad union employees. But, these stories of free health benefits, $100,000 pensions, etc. are very exagerrated.
Most municipal workers earn career salaries that are below the private industry standards in exchange for a long term commitment and some reward at the end. My engineer friends (which i was originally) made more than me for many years. Only now, near the end of my 20+ year career, with 30 credits beyond a Master's ( at a total cost of $22,000 out of pocket) am i beginning to make a decent salary. My pension will not be anywhere near $100,000 and I do and will contribute to my health coverage. I have never received a bonus, had many zero raise years, and never had profit sharing or 401k like my friends.
Don't get me wrong, even though i have never been able to afford a house in NYC, bought my first new car at 47 years old, and had my first real vacation 2 years ago (IN LAS VEGAS!!), I do not feel guilty that i will eventually be allowed to collect a pension (which i contributed to).
Union employees don't become millionaires or billionaires. We know who those guys are. Also, understand that the fights going on now are not so union members can get raises or better benefits. All unions are agreeing to cuts and zero raises, and higher contributions. They are fighting to not have their collective bargaining status removed, which is a necessity for negotiating fair contracts with the governments. The poor and middle classes should not be taxed to maintain services when budget cuts are necessary. The cuts are necessary because of Wall Street's mistakes and their responsibility in creating the Great Recession. They should shoulder the burden of making up for lost revenues they caused. Just some thoughts.
Location: central, between Pepe's Tacos and Roberto's
2,086 posts, read 6,845,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by las vegas drunk
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said with the exception of the unions. The government unions are nothing but leaches. Government workers expect free health care, sick days, vacation days, and pensions while most private sector workers get none of this. I certainly do not feel my taxes should go up so these people can get all these perks.
Why do you equate government worker with union? Do you believe the same about other unions such as SEIU and UAW?
You have no idea what my actual compensation and benefits are, what I pay for my benefits (I surrender 20% of my gross pay to fund my pension among other things) and what I expect although I will tell you that the main reason I went after my job (beside the fact that I wanted to do something I felt was meaningful) was not the pay which is really not that good but the benefits which I would not expect were it not offered as a condition of employment. I have no union bargaining on my behalf, and I have no power to negotiate or strike. When you consider the fact that my wife's benefits through the Culinary Union are much better than mine (and hers cost nothing but union dues) your argument regarding public sector vs. private sector is fallacious at best.
That said, I am not a fan of collective bargaining particularly for public sector employees and I certainly don't feel that your taxes should go up to pay for government employees to receive compensation that does not reflect current market or budget conditions, but to pigeonhole all government workers as leeches particularly while you have admitted you would never do what I do (not to mention your views on the brave men and women of our military) is quite frankly intellectual dishonesty.
LVD, your sentiments about unions are, unfortunately, gaining a lot of ground these days. The problem is that a lot of misinformation is being spread by the right wing media. As I mentioned, unions are seen as major supporters of Democratic candidates. If the Republicans can disable unions, they will cut a major source of Democratic funding. Then, all pro-business, pro-wealthy, and anti-labor legislation will have a better chance of passing.
Now, regardless of your personal view of unions, Democrats, etc., the fact is that this issue has its gray areas.
Labor issues have one major proponent - Unions. Issues regarding job safety, discrimination policies, breaks, benefits, child labor laws and such are all the result of union battles. if you have a coffee break or bathroom break, or sick days, somewhere along the line a union fought for that.
As a member of the teacher's union in NYC, I see that my union is not perfect. I don't always agree with their decisions. However, the alternative is a living nightmare. While there are flaws and some teachers receive undeserved protection, 98% of our members are honest, hard working people. Even with a union, we can sometimes go for 3 hours without being allowed to use a bathroom, work in classrooms with no windows and bad ventilation (what fool designed rooms for children like this is beyond me), have rooms with no heat in winter and no A/C when temps are above 85 degrees. Also, ours is the only profession that requires a Master's Degree ($15,000 - $50,000 cost) to keep your job but offers no reimbursement. We all chose to be teachers and knew the sacrifices, but we still need some form of protection.
Of course, there are crooked union officers, and bad union employees. But, these stories of free health benefits, $100,000 pensions, etc. are very exagerrated.
Most municipal workers earn career salaries that are below the private industry standards in exchange for a long term commitment and some reward at the end. My engineer friends (which i was originally) made more than me for many years. Only now, near the end of my 20+ year career, with 30 credits beyond a Master's ( at a total cost of $22,000 out of pocket) am i beginning to make a decent salary. My pension will not be anywhere near $100,000 and I do and will contribute to my health coverage. I have never received a bonus, had many zero raise years, and never had profit sharing or 401k like my friends.
Don't get me wrong, even though i have never been able to afford a house in NYC, bought my first new car at 47 years old, and had my first real vacation 2 years ago (IN LAS VEGAS!!), I do not feel guilty that i will eventually be allowed to collect a pension (which i contributed to).
Union employees don't become millionaires or billionaires. We know who those guys are. Also, understand that the fights going on now are not so union members can get raises or better benefits. All unions are agreeing to cuts and zero raises, and higher contributions. They are fighting to not have their collective bargaining status removed, which is a necessity for negotiating fair contracts with the governments. The poor and middle classes should not be taxed to maintain services when budget cuts are necessary. The cuts are necessary because of Wall Street's mistakes and their responsibility in creating the Great Recession. They should shoulder the burden of making up for lost revenues they caused. Just some thoughts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddys///M3
Why do you equate government worker with union? Do you believe the same about other unions such as SEIU and UAW?
You have no idea what my actual compensation and benefits are, what I pay for my benefits (I surrender 20% of my gross pay to fund my pension among other things) and what I expect although I will tell you that the main reason I went after my job (beside the fact that I wanted to do something I felt was meaningful) was not the pay which is really not that good but the benefits which I would not expect were it not offered as a condition of employment. I have no union bargaining on my behalf, and I have no power to negotiate or strike. When you consider the fact that my wife's benefits through the Culinary Union are much better than mine (and hers cost nothing but union dues) your argument regarding public sector vs. private sector is fallacious at best.
That said, I am not a fan of collective bargaining particularly for public sector employees and I certainly don't feel that your taxes should go up to pay for government employees to receive compensation that does not reflect current market or budget conditions, but to pigeonhole all government workers as leeches particularly while you have admitted you would never do what I do (not to mention your views on the brave men and women of our military) is quite frankly intellectual dishonesty.
I value both of your opinions and I actually learned some things from both posts. I will admit I am partially biased because of class envy. My best friend in Phoenix works as a correction officer in a tower. He basically does the same thing as I do as a security guard. The difference is he makes 2 1/2 times what I make. He gets tons of sick and vacation days each year on top of severely discounted health care. He will be able to retire on a pension in 4 years at only 41 years old. On top of getting paid less than $10 an hour, I get absolutely no benefits and will have to continue to work till the day I die. I hope you guys can at least see where I am coming from.
i am not for or against any Casino union.. however, I am strongly against the Automobile unions... what these guys make on an assembly line is ridiculous...$35-$45 an hour.. add the value of benefits, vacation, etc closer to $70...GM Employees just got a bonus of several thousand. If it wasn't for the pathetic gov't loan, gm would be bankrupt.
I value both of your opinions and I actually learned some things from both posts. I will admit I am partially biased because of class envy. My best friend in Phoenix works as a correction officer in a tower. He basically does the same thing as I do as a security guard. The difference is he makes 2 1/2 times what I make. He gets tons of sick and vacation days each year on top of severely discounted health care. He will be able to retire on a pension in 4 years at only 41 years old. On top of getting paid less than $10 an hour, I get absolutely no benefits and will have to continue to work till the day I die. I hope you guys can at least see where I am coming from.
Absolutely understand your point and totally sympathize. I felt exactly the same way for many years watching people with a similar education doing so much better. What you have to understand is that your position is a result of the decline of private unions. I would rather not belong to a union and have the same salary and benefits as a corporate trainer (private equivalent of a teacher). However my job, like yours, does not assist in generating income for a company. They are pure service jobs. So our value as employees is undermined.
You should have the same pay and benefits as your friend. However, since you work for a private company (I assume), with no union or collective bargaining, you are at the mercy of your employer. Your situation, sadly, is exactly what Republican pro business interests are looking to create (not a political statement, more a business statement). You are an at will employee and must accept the conditions of your job. Their main argument is that unions would destroy businesses. That would be true if unions were looking to maximize profits. They don't. The truth is that corporate money reserves are at an all time high. They are holding on to cash, slashing hiring and employment, raising costs, and maximizing profits.
Shareholders are doing great, employees are suffering.
We must find a happy medium here or all will suffer.
Some of you that are into conspiracy theories..do you ever get tired of it? It seems so depressing thinking the end of the world is coming around every corner. Why can't you just enjoy the life you have and try to make the best of it. An asteroid could fall from the sky and wipe out our planet in an instant. There will be nothing we can do about it. Why not just relax and have fun?
Some of you that are into conspiracy theories..do you ever get tired of it? It seems so depressing thinking the end of the world is coming around every corner. Why can't you just enjoy the life you have and try to make the best of it. An asteroid could fall from the sky and wipe out our planet in an instant. There will be nothing we can do about it. Why not just relax and have fun?
Because some of us want to prepare for what is coming. For example, the dollar is going to crash and everyone is going to lose all their savings. I invested my life savings in gold to protect myself from this. However, my best friend has an IRA worth $40,000. I told him to cash it out, take the hit on taxes and buy gold or silver with it. He refuses to do so, but he told me it would absolutely crush him to lose the IRA. Doesn't make sense, huh?
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