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Old 11-13-2009, 01:00 PM
 
1,316 posts, read 1,436,584 times
Reputation: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim10 View Post
I would like to address the issue of which is more culpable (a) banks' due diligence to verify loans were fake vs (b) fake loans from buyers.

The question is whether bank underwriting systems are sophisticated enough to pick up fakes. I would have tot so. And if they were not verifiable, then the loans should not have been approved.

From that perspective, I think maybe (a) is more culpable than (b).
It's a felony to provide known false information to secure a mortgage. It's an interesting perspective that the party being defrauded should be held more culpable than the party committing felony fraud.
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Old 11-13-2009, 01:18 PM
 
513 posts, read 668,968 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony soprano View Post
It's a felony to provide known false information to secure a mortgage. It's an interesting perspective that the party being defrauded should be held more culpable than the party committing felony fraud.
You can't con an honest man.
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Old 11-13-2009, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Peoria, AZ
1,064 posts, read 1,522,366 times
Reputation: 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony soprano View Post
It's a felony to provide known false information to secure a mortgage. It's an interesting perspective that the party being defrauded should be held more culpable than the party committing felony fraud.
I dont know if thats what anyone means, the words you use above are distorting the real issue.

Banks are in the business of lending and as such should be looking like hawks on how to close all loopholes that make "FRAUD" so easy.

If you are so dumb as to make the programs that open yourself up to SO MUCH EASY FRAUD as we see now see evidenced by the crumbling real estate market, then it also appears they were operating even MORE naively than their counterpart.

And for that reason, why would anyone have any sympathy for them? Why paint this picture of some innocent, competent institution that was bullied around, and beat up by the very buyers that they failed to assess properly???

No one is saying a person should have the right to LIE to get a loan. Thats a completely different issue. As it is a FELONY, there are ways to incarcerate and penalize such actions. And I think anyone who is angry at the banks, wouldnt stick up for such a person.

Why should any business that has failed in the FREE MARKET be allowed to continue to exist and operate on a seriously flawed model? People should be warned they are conducting business with an entity that has failed, and is failing, and under such desperate conditions are likely to stick you in the @ss for their own benefit. Continue that warning with, They have done it in the past, but are in denial. As they will admit no wrongdoing and fail to see how they can improve their business model, they are likely to do it again and you may be next, BEWARE!!! Then let them choose.
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Old 11-13-2009, 01:47 PM
 
33 posts, read 38,767 times
Reputation: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmist View Post
Why paint this picture of some innocent, competent institution that was bullied around, and beat up by the very buyers that they failed to assess properly???
I'm not one to blame the bank at all. I made a decision that turned out to be bad -- plain and simple. But I do agree with you here that it is strange that our resident ethics police officers can even begin to portray the bank as some innocent bystander and keep a straight face.

The banks treat people as a number. That's it. if your numbers add up, they work with you, if they don't, hey, it was nice not knowing ya.
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Old 11-13-2009, 01:48 PM
 
1,316 posts, read 1,436,584 times
Reputation: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmist View Post
I dont know if thats what anyone means, the words you use above are distorting the real issue.

Banks are in the business of lending and as such should be looking like hawks on how to close all loopholes that make "FRAUD" so easy.

If you are so dumb as to make the programs that open yourself up to SO MUCH EASY FRAUD as we see now see evidenced by the crumbling real estate market, then it also appears they were operating even MORE naively than their counterpart.

And for that reason, why would anyone have any sympathy for them? Why paint this picture of some innocent, competent institution that was bullied around, and beat up by the very buyers that they failed to assess properly???

No one is saying a person should have the right to LIE to get a loan. Thats a completely different issue. As it is a FELONY, there are ways to incarcerate and penalize such actions. And I think anyone who is angry at the banks, wouldnt stick up for such a person.

Why should any business that has failed in the FREE MARKET be allowed to continue to exist and operate on a seriously flawed model? People should be warned they are conducting business with an entity that has failed, and is failing, and under such desperate conditions are likely to stick you in the @ss for their own benefit. Continue that warning with, They have done it in the past, but are in denial. As they will admit no wrongdoing and fail to see how they can improve their business model, they are likely to do it again and you may be next, BEWARE!!! Then let them choose.
cmist, you seem to believe that any recognition of wrongdoing elsewhere is a tacit defense of banks and their bailout. I've yet to see anyone in this thread defend the bailout or indicate that they "felt sorry" for the banks. Our disagreement is primarily on where to assign the various degrees of blame.

It's become quite fashionable for the media to paint all underwater home buyers as naive rubes who were taken advantage of by the evil banks. This is demonstrably false. I fully acknowledge that many buyers played by the rules and just got the timing wrong. But I've also supplied some substantiation that mortgage fraud was rampant. Much more so than I think you acknowledge.

I'm a huge proponent of free markets (free markets do not necessarily mean zero regulation). I do believe banks should be punished for their poor business decisions, and they have been. Yes, some enormous institutions were bailed out. That is against my general principles but I'm going to defer to Bernanke's opinion that to let them fail would have been catastrophic.
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Old 11-13-2009, 01:50 PM
 
1,316 posts, read 1,436,584 times
Reputation: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiminani View Post
You can't con an honest man.
Cliches can be useful, but the legal system would disagree with you.
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Old 11-13-2009, 02:02 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,757 posts, read 20,291,968 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony soprano View Post
It's a felony to provide known false information to secure a mortgage. It's an interesting perspective that the party being defrauded should be held more culpable than the party committing felony fraud.
Who did what to who in a mortgage application is up for grabs. If the loan officer says "put $15,000 into the monthly income blank..that is what I need" who committed the felony? In some cases loan officers had applicants sign blank or partially blank applications.

Note that the loan officer was also not defrauded...and very likely past an application that was known to be false along.

And then we may well have a massive indictment of the boys at CW for deliberately orchestrating mortgage fraud.

I would think the center for culpablity rests with the organizations that ran the application process. In general they were part of the fraud and were not defrauded in the action.
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Old 11-13-2009, 02:25 PM
 
1,316 posts, read 1,436,584 times
Reputation: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Who did what to who in a mortgage application is up for grabs. If the loan officer says "put $15,000 into the monthly income blank..that is what I need" who committed the felony? In some cases loan officers had applicants sign blank or partially blank applications.

Note that the loan officer was also not defrauded...and very likely past an application that was known to be false along.
First, that would still take the buyer's complicity. Second, do you have any actual data indicating how often this occurred?
Quote:
And then we may well have a massive indictment of the boys at CW for deliberately orchestrating mortgage fraud.

I would think the center for culpablity rests with the organizations that ran the application process. In general they were part of the fraud and were not defrauded in the action.
"May well"? I may well win the lottery too. Again, do you have any data supporting any of these claims or are just idly speculating?
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:26 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,757 posts, read 20,291,968 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony soprano View Post
First, that would still take the buyer's complicity. Second, do you have any actual data indicating how often this occurred?"May well"? I may well win the lottery too. Again, do you have any data supporting any of these claims or are just idly speculating?
Well

Mortgage Fraud Blog - Loan Officer Found Guilty in DC Mortgage Fraud Trial

Senior Loan Officer sentenced in Mortgage Fraud scheme | Inside Charm City: Baltimore, Maryland blog

Jury convicts former Twin Cities loan officer in mortage fraud case | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/local/50282017.html - broken link)

http://www.justice.gov/usao/ohs/Press/04-14-09.pdf (broken link)

http://www.mortgagefraud.org/storage..._complaint.pdf

http://www.securities.arkansas.gov/!...45-09-CO01.pdf

And Then we get Chase with an actual instruction on how to beat the computer...

The Big Picture

Chase mortgage memo pushes ‘Cheats & Tricks’ | Oregon Business News - OregonLive.com

And the actual Flyer...

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/commen...eatstricks.doc

Now how about your report on the dozen and dozens of owner occupants who have been convicted for mortgage fraud?
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:46 PM
 
3,734 posts, read 3,111,486 times
Reputation: 2597
Quote:
Originally Posted by J78Jason View Post
Is it that flawed? Ethics aside, it makes sense for certain people to do what he's suggesting. Sure your credit is destroyed, but what good is having great credit when you are so far in debt that you'd have to be insane to go out and spend more?

People make mistakes, make bad decisions. It's life. I guess I just don't have the "I'm going down with the ship" mentality that cowboys like you do. Although, I'm guessing you didn't buy during the bubble (congratulations!) and therefore you can sit back and take shots at people from the comfort of your armchair.
Jason. Your rationalizing.
  • If I bought at the bubble and defaulted on my loan I'd have the courage to admit I was P.O.S.
  • If I have a heart attack because I don't exercise and am overweight, it's my own fault for not taking care of myself.
  • If I am not the best I can be and coast though a job and get cut, it's my own fault.
  • If I roll the dice and drink and drive even with a buzz it's my own fault when I get a DUI.
  • If I have an affair on my wife I have to admit I am a P.O.S.
I can go on and on.

Without question, we are all human and we make mistakes. Like everybody reading this, I have made bad decisions in my life. Moderator cut: personal attack

Last edited by Chickrae; 11-13-2009 at 10:39 PM.. Reason: personal attack
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