[gulfer]

I have no idea why I would even get into this conversation which seems to cover two of the better threads we have going in here...but whatever.
Would an Auto Salesperson not sell a car for full sticker price that a consumer decided they wanted when they know they would accept an offer of 10-15% off? Would a stock broker not take someones money for a stock they knew was over inflated and ready for a serious drop? Would a land lord take peoples money when he knew darn well he wasn't making mortgage payments anymore (basically stealing)? There are people that do business to make a living and there are people who do business that are unethical. To me there is a significant difference between what I just mentioned. There are leagle, ethical and moral boundaries that people decide to or not to cross.
You come up with this to cause an arguement, which incidently has absolutely nothing to the thread of having 12 foreclosures on the street.
There were people that thought the market was at the top of the bubble and there were people that thought the bubble wouldn't burst while they were all in.

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by tony soprano

You may have missed this from a couple days back - I think you're more of an optimist than I. If you believe Bernanke (I know a good number of people do not) we were on the brink of a global financial meltdown. While the scenario you envision was utopian and dreamy, I was becoming increasingly less concerned with home values and spending more time mulling over whether I had enough food and ammunition on hand. I know, I know.

What I'm saying, is that I think it would have been catastrophic for a majority of the general populous.

If you let AIG go the airline industry shuts down. Pretty much instantly. Bring it back up in a few days I suppose with a government program. Is that better than bailing out AIG?

If the large institutions crash the housing market stops. It effectively becomes impossible to buy or sell a house for anything other than cash...and that is real cash...not deposits in a non-functioning bank. Hell the same with cars. Your debit card stops functioning as your bank is no longer solvent.

I would think the positive feedback present was so strong that if allowed to run its course it really would have been a total collapse. We start back up the curve with water trucks and breadlines.

Was it all done perfectly? Very unlikely as no one really had a plan to contain the thing. It was virtually all ad hoc. Just trying to do enough to avert the collapse.

The one thing I still think was the best thought was from the lady running thrift supervision. She pointed out that one way to avoid bailing out those entities too big to faill...would be to have no entitities too big to fail. Interesting concept.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by gulfer

I have no idea why I would even get into this conversation which seems to cover two of the better threads we have going in here...but whatever.
Would an Auto Salesperson not sell a car for full sticker price that a consumer decided they wanted when they know they would accept an offer of 10-15% off? Would a stock broker not take someones money for a stock they knew was over inflated and ready for a serious drop? Would a land lord take peoples money when he knew darn well he wasn't making mortgage payments anymore (basically stealing)? There are people that do business to make a living and there are people who do business that are unethical. To me there is a significant difference between what I just mentioned. There are leagle, ethical and moral boundaries that people decide to or not to cross.
You come up with this to cause an arguement, which incidently has absolutely nothing to the thread of having 12 foreclosures on the street.
There were people that thought the market was at the top of the bubble and there were people that thought the bubble wouldn't burst while they were all in.

Gulfer. Actually some people would offer everyone 15% off even if they could get more, stock brokers would recommend them not to buy the stock, land lords might not feel comfortable to take money knowing they are not paying their mortgage. Most won't but some will.

Don't you see the the irony?? A RE Agent who makes money off these crappy loans during the boom is blaming all lenders for causing the problem. I guess I don't expect animal rights activists to work in a meat packing plant.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by olecapt

Actually bright, good agents don't suffer fools. They make lousey clients.

People with real needs and real questions get answers. Fools get that fact pointed out.

Huh???????????????????????

[cmist]

Originally Posted by tony soprano

You may have missed this from a couple days back - I think you're more of an optimist than I. If you believe Bernanke (I know a good number of people do not) we were on the brink of a global financial meltdown. While the scenario you envision was utopian and dreamy, I was becoming increasingly less concerned with home values and spending more time mulling over whether I had enough food and ammunition on hand. I know, I know.

What I'm saying, is that I think it would have been catastrophic for a majority of the general populous.

Yes, I was only letting my mind wander. Im definitely NOT an optimist. Do I sound like one?? (besides the imaginitive scenario I brought up in the last post)

Far as Im concerned, we are dealing with catastrophic conditions right now, so the catastrophic conditions associated with a bank meltdown would just be a different version of the same catastrophe. Was curious what others imagined would have been so catastrophic about a bank meltdown.

Im actually not familiar with Bernanke. Everything I speak about is only concerning things I have witnessed first hand and not propaganda spread from Washington. I dont give a sh*t about the trash they spoon feed the public as they only tell you what they want you to know.

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

Gulfer. Actually some people would offer everyone 15% off even if they could get more, stock brokers would recommend them not to buy the stock, land lords might not feel comfortable to take money knowing they are not paying their mortgage. Most won't but some will.

Don't you see the the irony?? A RE Agent who makes money off these crappy loans during the boom is blaming all lenders for causing the problem. I guess I don't expect animal rights activists to work in a meat packing plant.

What utter nonsense. You sit there an act as if making a profit is a sin?

Hell I can't even fix the badly broken RE Agent problems. You think I should straighten out the banks as well?

[tony soprano]

Originally Posted by olecapt

If you let AIG go the airline industry shuts down. Pretty much instantly. Bring it back up in a few days I suppose with a government program. Is that better than bailing out AIG?

If the large institutions crash the housing market stops. It effectively becomes impossible to buy or sell a house for anything other than cash...and that is real cash...not deposits in a non-functioning bank. Hell the same with cars. Your debit card stops functioning as your bank is no longer solvent.

I would think the positive feedback present was so strong that if allowed to run its course it really would have been a total collapse. We start back up the curve with water trucks and breadlines.

Was it all done perfectly? Very unlikely as no one really had a plan to contain the thing. It was virtually all ad hoc. Just trying to do enough to avert the collapse.

The one thing I still think was the best thought was from the lady running thrift supervision. She pointed out that one way to avoid bailing out those entities too big to faill...would be to have no entitities too big to fail. Interesting concept.

I've had spirited conversations on several occasions with reasonably like minded colleagues and to a person they vociferously opposed the bailouts. When I say like minded, I mean proponents of free markets. "Let the markets sort out who survives." I agreed on principle but I couldn't get any of them to really appreciate the gravity of what the likely fallout would entail. I may have a libertarian lean, but I'm also a pragmatist. The deconstruction of too big to fail seems to have some inertia behind it. At various times I've heard Bernanke and Geithner both say it's a problem that must be fixed.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by olecapt

What utter nonsense. You sit there an act as if making a profit is a sin?

Hell I can't even fix the badly broken RE Agent problems. You think I should straighten out the banks as well?

No. Make profit. Just don't come off as a saint and blame others. Moderator cut: personal attack

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by olecapt

Hell I can't even fix the badly broken RE Agent problems. You think I should straighten out the banks as well?

Moderator cut: personal attack

Just stick to driving people around neighborhoods and writing up contracts and being an experts on wells. It's not your responsibility "to fix the badly broken RE Agent problems".

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by tony soprano

I've had spirited conversations on several occasions with reasonably like minded colleagues and to a person they vociferously opposed the bailouts. When I say like minded, I mean proponents of free markets. "Let the markets sort out who survives." I agreed on principle but I couldn't get any of them to really appreciate the gravity of what the likely fallout would entail. I may have a libertarian lean, but I'm also a pragmatist. The deconstruction of too big to fail seems to have some inertia behind it. At various times I've heard Bernanke and Geithner both say it's a problem that must be fixed.

I remain a convinced capitalist...but on the basis that only capitalism provides the feedback mechanism that makes an economy work. That feedback mechanism however can go positive. And that is exactly what we saw.

I thnk the Ayn Rand contigent lead by Allen G has now bought the farm. It is clear that the system crashed worst where regulated least. And it is clear that the Treasury, the Fed, and the Presidents for at least the last 35 years are wrong. Unfettered capitalism will crash itself pursuing shot term goals.

So we need capitalism with a rational regulation set that confines things to rational limits. I leave how to formulate those regulations to the student. Hope they are vastly smarter than I.