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Old 06-28-2009, 10:52 PM
 
14,175 posts, read 13,635,856 times
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Western Europeans still migrate to the US but they do it either for personal reasons or they do it for specific opportunities (e.g. a great job, the experience, a great University, etc.). They no longer migrate out of a general economic necessity or for reasons of persecution. Eastern Europeans still migrate out of economic necessity. There are probably as many Americans migrating in the other direction to western Europe and for the same reasons.

The vast majority of western Europeans are pretty comfortable with the level of economic prosperity they have achieved and with the quality of life they have so migration really isn't on the agenda there.
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Old 06-29-2009, 12:38 AM
 
25,451 posts, read 12,772,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentlebee View Post
If you want to work in another EU country and your are born in EU Country you still need a special kind of permit to work in another EU Country if it is for longer than 3 months...so not exactly how you descibe it. You may work or stay for 3 months without that permit....
There's paperwork, but the fact of the matter is: All EU citizens have the right to live and work in another member state, provided they have work or other means to support themselves. (I have done this.)

Quote:
The rules are a little easier but not exactly that you can do and stay as long as you want.
A little easier than emigrating to the US? They're a lot easier. As in, an established right to residence. No such thing when emigrating to the US. (I have done this, as well.)
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Old 06-29-2009, 04:09 AM
 
Location: Anchorage, Alaska (most of the time)
1,219 posts, read 3,173,363 times
Reputation: 1859
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDnurse View Post
Imagine you're a modern Western European today. You are likely to:

1. have marketable skills because of the free education/training you received from the state
2. speak at least two languages
3. have a job
4. have 30 to 45 days paid vacation every year
5. have free health care
6. be in relatively good health because you can walk darn near everywhere because you live in a "walkable" city
7. have access to cheap, reliable transit
8. don't have to have a car and the expense that it entails because of number 6 and 7 above
9. have free movement throughout Europe thanks to your EU passport
10. have all your family and friends in Europe and don't want to move too far away from them.
11. have a decent pension
12. have no fear of the government. On the contrary, the government is fearful of the people, as it happens in France.
You people aren't making it any easier on me! I want to stay!
I could be moving to England (that "work permit" you have to get after 3 months isn't hard, pretty much just go in and register. I know plenty of people who have done this. Besides, it's our right to do so if we want, therefore it isn't very hard. Try migrating to the US, it ain't a walk in the park, trust me)

In the US, many say we don't have things for "free" around here since we pay "outrageous taxes". But then, we might pay taxes, and then get "free" health care, education, public transportation, etc. All we pay is the taxes.
In the US, the taxes are lower, but when you want to go to the hospital or get a college degree, the costs are way higher than what we pay in taxes. Plus in the US, you have to pay for health insurance etc. We don't.
I'll take high taxes over anything else.
Besides, YOU might pay taxes and never go to the hospital or get a degree, but by paying taxes, you help OTHERS go to the hospital and get a degree. Solidarity, thy name is taxes
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Old 06-29-2009, 05:50 AM
 
23,275 posts, read 34,383,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweden View Post
You people aren't making it any easier on me! I want to stay!
I could be moving to England (that "work permit" you have to get after 3 months isn't hard, pretty much just go in and register. I know plenty of people who have done this. Besides, it's our right to do so if we want, therefore it isn't very hard. Try migrating to the US, it ain't a walk in the park, trust me)

In the US, many say we don't have things for "free" around here since we pay "outrageous taxes". But then, we might pay taxes, and then get "free" health care, education, public transportation, etc. All we pay is the taxes.
In the US, the taxes are lower, but when you want to go to the hospital or get a college degree, the costs are way higher than what we pay in taxes. Plus in the US, you have to pay for health insurance etc. We don't.
I'll take high taxes over anything else.
Besides, YOU might pay taxes and never go to the hospital or get a degree, but by paying taxes, you help OTHERS go to the hospital and get a degree. Solidarity, thy name is taxes
So you are a socialist so you way better of in Europe. Finally you admitted it. Over here most people don't want to pay high taxes so others who don't want to save money and pay for health ins....can have it. That is called Capitalism and still the people are very social over here. In Europe there isn't as much volunteer work and charity work as over here and I was shocked to see how much good work is done by all the volunteers and decided to do it myself. In Europe people have more the feeling that because of the high taxes the government should tae care of it, and although people do volunteer work like some of my family members you can't compare it to what volunteer work is over here.
The Western Europeans who want to work harder and try to get more instead of working harder and don't get more income just paying higher taxes, want to move overhere, but it is harder due to the economy.
I agree legal immigration or legally getting a visa isn't cheap and easy and finding a job right now for a foreigner will be even harder.
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:54 AM
 
705 posts, read 1,096,774 times
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High taxes aren't a problem if the government delivers with the tax dollars. We pay a lot of taxes and get very little in return, this is a problem.
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:35 AM
CBB
 
Location: Munich + FL, 32082
481 posts, read 1,927,525 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentlebee View Post
So you are a socialist so you way better of in Europe.
I'm sure you know how to google. Please look up the real definition of socialism and stop parroting rightwing U.S. media. You may have lived in Europe, but you don't give the impression that you understood much of it.
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:45 AM
 
14,175 posts, read 13,635,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyP View Post
High taxes aren't a problem if the government delivers with the tax dollars. We pay a lot of taxes and get very little in return, this is a problem.
Quite! My taxes are just as high in the USA as they were in Switzerland. If anything, maybe a bit higher. Overall, US taxes are lower than in most European countries but don't kid yourselves that the US is a low tax jurisdiction. On top of that, we get nailed by "stealth" taxes just as much as Europeans do. Just look at a cell phone bill or a utility bill for all the taxes, surcharges, levies, etc. that go on it.

Did you know that 50% of all health costs are actually paid for by the federal government? So, I am paying for that out of my taxes and paying for insurance too. Quite apart from the fairness aspect, it is hardly efficient or smart.
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Chicago
38,691 posts, read 82,786,882 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spincycle View Post
Why aren't Europeans, esp. Western Europeans immigrating to the US anymore?

I have heard 2 opposing viewpoints on the subject matter.

One side says that the current US policy, system, and diversity quotas literally discourage/restrict immigration from non-minority, white, European nations.

Other side argues that Europeans, esp. Western Europeans resent the US and US lifestyle and are much happier with their system of government and social services at home.

What gives?
I think you're missing another possible explanation: quality of life, political stability and economic achievement in Western Europe has largely reached parity with the U.S. There are some differences in each, but not enough to cause tons of people to want to uproot their entire lives and move to another continent.

As for Eastern Europeans, it's easier for them to simply move to Western Europe than to North America. Correct me if I'm wrong someone, but isn't there pretty much unrestricted movement among citizens of EU member nations? That said, Chicago still gets a good number of Polish immigrants -- how many are legal versus illegal, I don't know. I also don't know what attracts them to Chicago specifically other than there's already a critical mass of them here (what attracted them here?), but large chunks of the Northwest and Southwest sides are like Little Warsaw. Some Ukranians still make their way here too.
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Old 06-29-2009, 03:00 PM
 
Location: Houston
441 posts, read 1,112,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
As for Eastern Europeans, it's easier for them to simply move to Western Europe than to North America. Correct me if I'm wrong someone, but isn't there pretty much unrestricted movement among citizens of EU member nations? That said, Chicago still gets a good number of Polish immigrants -- how many are legal versus illegal, I don't know. I also don't know what attracts them to Chicago specifically other than there's already a critical mass of them here (what attracted them here?), but large chunks of the Northwest and Southwest sides are like Little Warsaw. Some Ukranians still make their way here too.
Yes and no. There is unrestricted movement for new EU members, but working is restricted a lot. As you mentioned Poland, they cannot be employed in neighboring Germany, Austria etc. They must go to UK or Denmark etc
If person is able to find job there, it's definitely better for him than US especially as US dollar is pretty low now.

Ukraine is not an EU member, but it's easier for them to get working VISA in EU country than in US.


In general, if you are very skilled worker with degree and experience, it's still better to go to US, since most of EU countries will tax you to the ground. If you expect your income to be less than say 7k USD, it's better to stay in Europe maybe.

Those chunks of eastern europeans (I prefer to call them central) in chicago are dated way back to 1800's, so it's nothing new.

Last edited by meet4; 06-29-2009 at 03:03 PM.. Reason: typos
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Old 06-29-2009, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,691 posts, read 82,786,882 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meet4 View Post
Yes and no. There is unrestricted movement for new EU members, but working is restricted a lot. As you mentioned Poland, they cannot be employed in neighboring Germany, Austria etc. They must go to UK or Denmark etc
If person is able to find job there, it's definitely better for him than US especially as US dollar is pretty low now.

Ukraine is not an EU member, but it's easier for them to get working VISA in EU country than in US.


In general, if you are very skilled worker with degree and experience, it's still better to go to US, since most of EU countries will tax you to the ground. If you expect your income to be less than say 7k USD, it's better to stay in Europe maybe.

Those chunks of eastern europeans (I prefer to call them central) in chicago are dated way back to 1800's, so it's nothing new.
Actually this wave of Polish immigrants is pretty new, coming after decades of not a lot of Polish immigration. Also, there are really no other European ethnic sections of this city that still receive any but a tiny handful of immigrants from their respective homelands. There are no more Greeks pouring into Greektown, no more Italians pouring into Little Italy, no more Irish pouring into Beverly, no more Czechs pouring into Pilsen (which is about 80% Mexican now), no more Swedes pouring into Andersonville, no more Romanians pouring into Old Irving Park (though there are some recent Serbian immigrants there), et cetera. Anyone moving from Greece/Italy/Czech Republic/etc. won't have a network of their expats waiting to assist them with jobs and housing and won't have it too easy if they don't already know English. People moving here from Poland have a huge support network ready to assist them, and if necessary they can get by without knowing English.
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