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Old 07-29-2009, 01:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but View Post
As a matter of fact, the very first settlers in the USA came here because they were victims of religious persecution in their native England. The US has had a tradition of religious freedom ever since.
Are you claiming that the first settlements had religious freedom?

The Pilgrims were persecuted in Europe, agreed. But once they got themselves settled in and were on top, they did not institute any sort of "religious freedom" - on the contrary, if you didn't abide by their religious rules, they'd do what they found necessary to save your soul. Even if it meant damaging your body in the process.
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,416 posts, read 27,928,273 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
That's a tad different from: "If they are Jews or pretend to be, they get special breaks", isn't it?
I was thinking specifically of the countries mentioned, Poland and Russia. It was easier to get out of there and into the US on the basis of being a persecuted Jew.

However, religious persecution of any sort, not just against Jews, has been a valid basis to immigrate into the US.
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,416 posts, read 27,928,273 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
Are you claiming that the first settlements had religious freedom?

The Pilgrims were persecuted in Europe, agreed. But once they got themselves settled in and were on top, they did not institute any sort of "religious freedom" - on the contrary, if you didn't abide by their religious rules, they'd do what they found necessary to save your soul. Even if it meant damaging your body in the process.
I believe in the very beginning religious freedom was one of the ideals and was practiced.

However, as with anything else in societies, some religions got more power than others and persecuted religions they didn't like.

The US had their witchcraft trials as did Europe, and certainly damaged many bodies over that.

Let's face it, the bloodiest wars have been fought all over the world (and are still being fought) on the basis of religion vs. religion.

Nowadays, although I have to add the disclaimer that we do have a sizable Christian fundamentalist movement in this country that does attempt to sabotage other's religious, personal and political freedoms, I would say that the US is one of the best countries to be in when it comes to rights to practice one's religion. Even people in jail have their religious accommodations granted and that includes the accused terrorists in the infamous Guantanemo Bay prison.

Unlike the US, these days, even the typically enlightened UK has started instituting some restrictive rules against Muslims, blurring the line between religion and accusations of terrorism, after the bombing attacks in London a few years ago. Even after 9/11 there was not much widespread persecution of Muslims in the USA. Consider other countries these days and how the reaction might have been wholesale slaughter of Muslims.
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:29 PM
 
Location: The Present
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Well what about the other way around with some Americans wanting to leave for certain parts of Europe? (or even Southeast Asia for that matter)
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:34 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
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I assume it is equally difficult to move to Europe. Basically normal immigrants are not welcome anymore anywhere. And those with special talents, money etc. can go pretty much anywhere they like.
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:51 AM
 
812 posts, read 2,079,022 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but View Post
Nowadays, although I have to add the disclaimer that we do have a sizable Christian fundamentalist movement in this country that does attempt to sabotage other's religious, personal and political freedoms, I would say that the US is one of the best countries to be in when it comes to rights to practice one's religion. Even people in jail have their religious accommodations granted and that includes the accused terrorists in the infamous Guantanemo Bay prison.
this only happened through contrary opinions and opposition, otherwise you can't assume it would have happened regardless.

this is the discrepancy that is important to discern when assuming credit for more 'religious or poliltical freedom' or anything for that matter, it's a process of evolution or cause and effect.
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal2.0 View Post
Im British and desperatly want to move to the US but as may people have said the US' imigration policy is making really hard for us western europeans who aren't polish, russians etc to move legally. I just want to move to California, get a descent job and work towards being a Fire Fighter without having to invest money buy a business etc. I am not moving because of Muslims or anything political, i just want to move because England isn't really my kind of country and i am finding it impossible to migrate. *sigh*

That's why our immigration policies need reform. Immigration should be about people who truly want to be American, can and would assimilate, speak the common language of this country and so on getting here.

Now immigration is a big mess. Those who want to come for welfare easily can be sponsored if they have some family member living here. It's terribly unfair that someone who would come here for all the right reasons has no chance because those who cannot and will not assimilate or even work here can easily be brought in by families who sponsor them but of course never provide the financial support of them.
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Old 07-30-2009, 08:11 AM
 
53 posts, read 279,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
That's why our immigration policies need reform. Immigration should be about people who truly want to be American, can and would assimilate, speak the common language of this country and so on getting here.

Now immigration is a big mess. Those who want to come for welfare easily can be sponsored if they have some family member living here. It's terribly unfair that someone who would come here for all the right reasons has no chance because those who cannot and will not assimilate or even work here can easily be brought in by families who sponsor them but of course never provide the financial support of them.
1) Do you know how long it takes to get a GC?
2) Do you know how long it takes to bring immediate family member in FAMILY bases immigration quota?

For an Indian immigrant, it takes about 18 years to get his GC and it takes another 15 years to get his parents. So let's do the math. Average age of an immigrants in IT industry is about 30 (let's say parents are around 60), gets his GC when he is 48 years old (Parents are now 78), applies for parents GC and get it 15 years later, now the immigrant is 58 and parents are 93 years old. Now he cannot just bring his parents and get the benefits, there is a wait time of 5 years (Spongr42 and T310, please correct me if I'm wrong), now parents are 98. Do you think that is the objective of every immigrant? And did you know that average salary of 10+ years experienced IT professional is 150-200K/annum? Do you realize that the immigrant has paid taxes for 30+ years before his/her parents arrive (if they are alive ) here?

I can understand all the reasons why you hate immigrants and wake-up every morning to ***** about them, but can't you come up with some good reasons? All the figures your organization is feeding you is not FACTS, it's made-up numbers.

Last edited by ForumUser; 07-30-2009 at 08:30 AM..
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Old 07-30-2009, 08:43 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,699,632 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForumUser View Post
1) Do you know how long it takes to get a GC?
2) Do you know how long it takes to bring immediate family member in FAMILY bases immigration quota?

For an Indian immigrant, it takes about 18 years to get his GC and it takes another 15 years to get his parents. So let's do the math. Average age of an immigrants in IT industry is about 30 (let's say parents are around 60), gets his GC when he is 48 years old (Parents are now 78), applies for parents GC and get it 15 years later, now the immigrant is 58 and parents are 93 years old. Now he cannot just bring his parents and get the benefits, there is a wait time of 5 years (Spongr42 and T310, please correct me if I'm wrong), now parents are 98. Do you think that is the objective of every immigrant? And did you know that average salary of 10+ years experienced IT professional is 150-200K/annum? Do you realize that the immigrant has paid taxes for 30+ years before his/her parents arrive (if they are alive ) here?

I can understand all the reasons why you hate immigrants and wake-up every morning to ***** about them, but can't you come up with some good reasons? All the figures your organization is feeding you is not FACTS, it's made-up numbers.
Where did I ever say I hate immigrants?

We have a lot of immigrants, more than any other nation and people are still arriving every day. Many people on our government programs are immigrants - a disportionate number of welfare recipients are immigrants.

I am very much against bringing elderly and infirm immigrants to live here off our medicaid and other government handouts. So what if the immigrant paid some taxes.

My father, my grandfather paid their own taxes, and if their taxes paid for some of their retirement here that's certainly different than bringing in all the elderly of the world who want a USA taxpayer provided retirement. Your taxes are for your future retirement, not that of your elderly relatives who never worked here.
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Old 07-30-2009, 08:46 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,699,632 times
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In other words -- your taxes do not cover the costs of your parents, grandparents and who ever else in your family plus your own retirement years.

An American generally begins paying taxes at age 15 to 22 and pays in for 50 to 60 years before they can retire. An immigrant arriving at age 30 or 40 will not work here long enough to pay for even their own retirement much less that of many relatives who never put in a dime.
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