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and not only are you paying for the kids of homeowners but also the children of rental breeders too....who pay absolutely no taxes to the county or school district.
Actually a top NYC school with a 3.8 average, but I guess that doesn't make a difference.
Read post #26 on page 3 of this thread - where there is some real world analysis on the true cost of things. You might learn something that was missed in your top NYC MBA school. If some of the industry acronyms's blow you away, feel free to ask questions.
Amen. And we hate it more when we don't have kids. I am in my late 20's and childless. Why should I have to pay for other people's freakin' kids to get an education @ the expenses of my taxes going up. Un-fcking-real.
You're going to have to pay for other people's kids to have a public school education no matter where you go, just like child-free people in your parents' generation paid for you, so get over it already. If you can't afford to live here, move. You're young, the world is your oyster.
You're going to have to pay for other people's kids to have a public school education no matter where you go, just like child-free people in your parents' generation paid for you, so get over it already. If you can't afford to live here, move. You're young, the world is your oyster.
Not in other countries.
I CAN afford to live here perfectly fine. I am just sick of paying the salaries of people who work part-time.
I CAN afford to live here perfectly fine. I am just sick of paying the salaries of people who work part-time.
In other countries where there is quality public education, your income tax rate would be 60-70% on a good day.
Yeah, yeah, you're sick of paying teacher salaries. So what? Really. I'm not trying to thunk you over the head, but guess what? You've also paid for Citibank's latest company yacht, six-figure bonuses for Wall Street bailout recipients, food stamps for some poor administrative assistant who got laid off 18 months ago in the Wall Street carnage and can't find work, Medicare and Medicaid for people who receive treatment from semi-retired health professionals, and Social Security for people who don't work at all.
Like it or not, you're a human being living in a developed nation. That means you pay for public services because you're part of the public, too. I mean, I don't drive that much, but I understand how important good roads are. Same thing.
The difference between a contractor/mechanic/roofer and a teacher is simple. The "all-in" price is known at the onset - meaning before you authorize the work you are made fully aware that the cost is X number of dollars or will cost a certain sum.
When I had work done on my house, (before I got married, other house that I inherited), I had a set amount that it was supposed to be. Then, they said that they would only finish the work if I gave them another 15k. I was just getting a roof and siding. They had everything taken off of my house so I was in a terrible position. Then, they walked. I had to sue them and hire a lawyer since I wasn't familiar with this type of proceeding (I worked in an entertainment law firm- very different stuff). I got screwed plain and simple and had to pay someone else to finish it. So, I wish I had known about the true cost.
You never know the "true cost" of a job before because there are a ton of variables. Talk to anyone who has ever had a kitchen redone or any other major project done on their house. Ask them how much they thought they would pay before and what the actual cost was. Hence, I don't think this is a good example of something where you know the price ahead of time.
However, with a teacher that number is not known. Here's the math behind it. Joe the roofer charges you 10,000 for a new roof, included in that price is the cost of materials, labor and a warranty against defects for a certain period of time. Jane the teacher makes $75,000 annually - that much is known upfront, the unknown is the annual cost to the taxpayer in the future for pension cost, retiree medical cost (based on these new 25/55 programs - life expectancy continues to increase each year) and benefits costs during the remaining working years.
There's a reason that the entire profession of actuarial science exists. If we could not predict future costs, we would not be able to set premiums for things like car insurance, health insurance, etc.
As an MBA you know you need to know certain variables to calculate the NPV of future expenses - tell me, are you able to calculate the actual "true" cost of that one teacher today? Not really, discount rates can be estimated using historical data and extrapolating current rates, the same can not be said for medical costs due to extreme volatility in the increases, nor can it be for future salary increases since they are at the whim of taxpayer largesse and irrational decision making (or voting with emotion instead of mind).
You can calculate the true cost of a teacher today by using actuarial tables to estimate the said teacher's lifespan. If you are talking about NPV, what about the ephemeral "cash flows" that come in such as the value of the education that you really can't measure. Think of the impact that the school has on the individuals that graduate and what this education has done for them. You can't calculate NPV for a teacher just like you can't for music lessons for your kid or a minister, anyone who is providing a service basically.
The argument could be made that pension costs are known based on historical average market returns of 8%, but should the last twenty years of equity market returns prove to be an abberation, how will you be able to calculate the true cost of the pension if the 8% turns out to be statistically unreliable? Again, pension experts typically quote 8%, but that is true only for a pure 100% allocation to equities - a truly risky endeavor. As the past few years returns have shown, all the risk of failure to achieve "average" returns falls squarely on the backs of taxpayers - there is no "risk" to the teacher or any other government employee for that matter.
We know on average what market returns are. If you look at the return of the market over a lengthened period, such as ten or fifteen years, you will see these trends. This is why when you are taking MBA classes they tell you that even though the market fluctuates, it provides the best source of return, even taking into account periods like the Great Depression.
We know on average what market returns are. If you look at the return of the market over a lengthened period, such as ten or fifteen years, you will see these trends. This is why when you are taking MBA classes they tell you that even though the market fluctuates, it provides the best source of return, even taking into account periods like the Great Depression.
1) Lucky you inherited it - otherwise, you'd really find out the true cost of things. Sorry for your misfortune - but it's up to you to be the project manager - the way you get around that is to research, check references, put 10% down, and the remainder upon completion of the job.
2) Actually, I just re-did my kitchen - it came in at cost.
3) Actuarial science is more art than science - if it was precise then tell me why the insurance companies have taken huge hits in the P&C market, the annuity market and re-insurance. Simple, the actuary's failed to accurately predict the statistical likelihood of damage, associated costs and other variables. Perhaps that is why most insurance companies today are trading for less than book value, because the PV of calculated book value is itself questionable.
4) Stop with the union shmeal about "ephermal values". We are talking about real and tangible, not intangible goodwill for which you can make up what ever figure you choose as long as it suits your needs.
5) Yes, we know on average what market returns are from 1929 until today. However, what are the statistical chances that us taxpayers will live 80+ years to realize such average returns as to pay the teachers "today".? The answer is virtually nil. Therefore, with negative real returns being realized in the markets today, we the taxpayers are in essence paying you far in excess of your real worth. Since there is no inflation, why are we paying you increases in salaries and benefits? No inflation, means no need to pay any thing extra. In fact, there is deflation in the economy - please defend an increase in a deflationary enviornment.
The whole “It’s not that I don’t like teachers. . . I just don’t want to pay for them” attitude is silly. Without education, every other sector of our economy breaks down. That’s why taxes pay for them. Whether you personally use it/like it or not. Same reason taxes pay for police, firefighters, and other essential public services. We should expect all essential service people to suck it up and live in poverty (or not go into these jobs that we actually NEED people to take---sure, now it's easy to say there's a teacher surplus, but when the market recovers, who will stay?) so that folks in the private sector can keep more of their money?
If the issue is how the taxes are collected (percentages , from whom) or how the overall funds are spent (wasted money in the school system vs. teacher pay), those are all arguments that have nothing to do with “overpaid” teachers.
Anyone who thinks teachers are overpaid is not evaluating the field as a professional field. All teachers have college degrees, about 30-40% in my (home) state have Masters degrees, with that number going up each year, because of the continuing training, most have at least some Masters-level credit. Teachers do extremely complex, specialized work that requires both expertise of background knowledge (subject matter – more true in Secondary, but still true in Elementary) and a myriad of soft, high level skills (communication, analysis, organization, presentation, and problem-solving). They have to deal with a variety of stakeholders – children, parents, administrators, other colleagues – and they have to manage ~30 children at a time (sometimes 150 in a day!) to put out their best possible work product and grow as individuals. Teachers are some of the most terribly paid white-collar managers in America. If you want glorified babysitters, then yes, you’re paying too much. If you want teachers, you’re damn lucky ANY of them that are good stay for more than 5 years, because – long-term – you’re not paying them enough.
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a teacher that had been complained about for YEARS and is still teaching.
I'm sure this happens, but I doubt it happens en masse as people suggest. There are a myriad of issues:
This teacher has been complained about for doing what?
To whom did the parents complain? To each other? To forums online? To their neighbors and friends? Or direct, specific complaints to the administration?
Have the parents scheduled meetings with the teacher herself to state their concerns? Have they then followed up with the administration?
The issue is that while complaints should be investigated (certainly if they are at a high level), we don’t really have a full story on this. While the administration is at fault if they allow crap teachers to stay for years (perhaps even without direct complaints---I mean, they should notice) without implementing the review process, and while the crap teacher is at fault, this isn't really a systemic issue like folks try to present it.
I’ve seen bad teachers get fired in the States, even with tenure. It's not instantaneous, and one complaint won't do it (nor should it) -- unless something crazy happens. Still, the union isn’t a magic shield and tenure doesn’t secure a job FOREVER – it just secures a fair, long-term process of examining a teacher once they’ve been working for a substantial amount of time (usually in the same school or district) and proven themselves through a given process. That way, a new administrator can’t come into a school and just axe all the teachers they want to bring in folks who agree with their particular style, or a teacher can’t be fired because she had a class of lower ability kids who didn’t get the test results people wanted, due to factors outside of her control. A due process is required. Fair treatment is necessitated.
I'm sorry if your corporate job doesn't give you the protection of a fair, unbiased, well-documented review (and perhaps even some performance coaching to fix the problems, if that will help) before kicking you out the door, but it's really not a ridiculous thing to ask for. This is what the union is supposed to fight for, and this is what I've seen them fight for. I'm not sure if there are "rogue" teachers unions making folks cold-call for Hillary (I'd never have done that when I was in a teachers' union, and I'm pretty sure they'd still have taken my dues money and let me stay in), but I worked at a corporate company that tried to make employees cold-call for Rudy, too (I also refused).
Now, IF that due process isn’t being followed in some districts, allowing bad teachers to stay in the school, THAT is worth complaining about. But making the issue about the existence of tenure, unions, or teachers’ pensions is nonsensical and distorting what those things are and how they work. The issue is the review process isn’t being followed as it should be, and the administrators don’t care about the issue in that case. What you've got there is a case of bad administrators, not bad teachers.
Teachers are some of the most terribly paid white-collar managers in America.
From another of your posts in a different forum:
Quote:
The fact of the matter is the WAY schools are funded is nonsensical, so teacher pay will continue to be nonsensical. I think if you look at other Western countries, you'll see better systems. In Canada, for example, teacher pay starts at around the same (somewhere in the mid to low 30s) but you can be making 60K easily by year 10 and it taps out around 80/100K depending on area, around the average time of retirement, instead of much lower in the U.S.
Before blasting us on the LI forum you really need to EDUCATE yourself first about what's actually going on HERE.
Your example of Canada, that you think is fair and think the U.S. pays much lower than?
LOL! Trust me on this, Canada pays an absolute pittance compared to what public school teachers on LI are making, yet private school teachers here make less than Canada and CONSIDERABLY less than public school teachers. The difference between the two? Unions running amok in the public sector. The police officers on LI are also very highly paid here, yet it certainly isn't a "big money" job anywhere else in the country. Like teachers, the police officer jobs are so highly sought after on LI that they get thousands of people willing to pay $100 just to take the test. Why not, when the starting salary is good and you will be making 6 figures in 5 short years? Yet how do the police officers in the "rest of America" get paid? Some are so low they start at minimum wage. Why is it so different on LI from the rest of the country when it comes to public sector jobs like teachers and police? Answer: Public sector union/politician boondoggles.
Would you like to own a plain, older middle-class house on a small lot and pay over $11,000 a year in property taxes (which will be guaranteed to go up every year)? Do you think that's fair? Almost $1200 a month right off the bat, not counting the mortgage! It's reality around here because the public sector unions are eating us alive. Great if you're in one of those unions ... even better if both you and your spouse are, then you're golden ... not great for those of us who work in the real world and have to pay the taxes to keep the public sector unions and their members in the standard of living to which they've become accustomed ... for their entire lives! LI taxpayers fund the vast majority of their pensions (plus we have to try and save for our retirements by ourselves in our 401ks). And Medicare isn't good enough for them at age 65. LI taxpayers provide private insurance for them and their dependents after retirement too in almost all school districts on LI. As for the police ... they never ever have to pay a penny towards their health insurance. It's all free for them.
Do you think teachers on LI still have it so "tough?" Can you muster up any sympathy for the taxpayers or are you still going to stand there and scream, "Pay more, pay more, pay more!!!"?
PS: Before you get dollar signs in your eyes and pack your bags for LI, be aware that the school districts here get thousands and thousands of resumes for any teaching jobs available, and since they usually hire people who are "connected" to the unions or have connections to someone else already in a school district, you are more likely to win the MegaMillions lottery or get hit by lightning than get hired here as an outsider. If you stink as a teacher, unless you murder someone or molest the children, you will still have a job until you retire. The unions take care of their own. They have the administrators under their thumbs because the admins. LOVE the juicy teacher contracts, because then they tell the school board, "We manage the teachers, so we are entitled to MORE than they get ..." Yeah, that's our "fair and equitable" civil service sector at work for you. Unions are not always "good" (considering how the mob has run many of them I shouldn't have to even tell you this) and to blindly believe that they are always right is shortsighted. The public sector unions of NYS may very well be the downfall of this state.
PPS: Think I'm exaggerating? By all means take a look at the contracts, the pensions, the annual salaries ... it's all public record:
Last edited by I_Love_LI_but; 06-19-2010 at 01:46 AM..
Reason: Sleepy ... just woke up for a quick rant.
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