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Old 06-30-2010, 07:37 AM
 
573 posts, read 580,786 times
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what's the difference between a native citizen or one who has gain citizenship through naturalization and is NOT working versus one who is illegal and is not working?
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Old 06-30-2010, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
15,855 posts, read 17,220,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thehouse View Post
what's the difference between a native citizen or one who has gain citizenship through naturalization and is NOT working versus one who is illegal and is not working?
The one who is illegal is in this country while not being known or acknowledged or authorized by the authorities. They have not been background checked. (Homeland Security does biographies on all immigrants.) They are not accounted for statistically, they can be terrorists and/or other kinds of criminals for all we know. (Homeland security does criminal background checks and has a terrorist watchlist.) They can have diseases. (All immigrants must pass a medical examination.) They are a burden on the system because of all the PC laws "allowing" them things like public assistance, Medicaid, etc., in certain cases (they know exactly how to go around the red tape and advise others who sneak into the country how to). If they reproduce on US soil, their offspring become a burden on the system when by rights they and their offspring should be a burden on the system of their native country, not here.

What if every poor person in every nation decided to come here and sneak in? How would you like America then? You should get on your hands and knees and thank God for airport security and thank God that only around the land borders it is possible to sneak in or we would be awash in third-world peasants that we could not support who would literally reproduce the squalor in their own countries. Think about it.

Sorry we cannot take them all. Just because you are seeing some and think it is "no big deal" does not mean it will stay that way. As long as we remain lax, the more the merrier. Then what?
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Old 06-30-2010, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
15,855 posts, read 17,220,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kajimenez View Post
There are many problems that are consequences of illegal immigrants that are crossing the border without proper identification. Let me ask you, where do you draw the line? 1 million, 10 million, 100 million? Or is there no line at all. Why even have a United States with borders? Why doesn't everyone come to the US whenever they want? Just come and go as you please. Do you see any problems with this whatsoever? There is a myriad of problems: burden on social system, exploitation of illegal immigrants, loss of tax revenue, criminals that cannot be identified (I know-minority of immigrants), large groups of men on corners where young girls walk to school, 60 people to a house thus overloading of sewer systems... and on and on. The blame does not fall on the individuals, but the inability to come up with a workable solution by the governement, federal, state and local. We can't just keep turning our heads to be politically correct. We can't just say, these are just poor migrant workers looking to make a living. If anyone tries to speak up, they are pegged a racist. We are the only country stumbling over our own political correctness.
Great post! +4!!
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Inis Fada
13,940 posts, read 16,669,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean View Post
You personally knew 4-5 people who may or may not have been illegal immigrants 20+ years ago, plus you saw a few more waiting for a bus. What does that have to do with anything? Obviously there have been some since long before that, but my point was that there was not a significant population on Long Island or anywhere in the NE United States until the 1990s.....and this point was only made to support the reality that in the 80s it would have been very uncommon to see Hispanic illegal immigrants engaging in regular, day-to-day activities (by your definition, "flaunting") amongst the middle class as you do many places on Long Island today. A behavioral comparison (by my definition, "ridiculous generalization") can't really be made between the two periods in time because there is a massive disparity in the population figures, aside from a million other factors. If the same percentage of illegal immigrants were engaging in these normal, every day activities like shopping or walking down the street back then, it would still have appeared less noticeable since the sheer numbers were significantly less. I doubt you actually disagree, but if you do I'm sure I can go dig up documents and statistics to support this.
Sean, when many of us were out there working during this time period, you were a young child. There are those of us who witnessed the illegals in the workforce i.e. my employer's office cleaning lady (who was one of the women at the bus stop) as well as those I worked amongst in the factory, you knew that these people weren't here legally. You claim that there weren't many around, how do you explain that at that point in time there were obviously enough here to require an amnesty in 1986?

No one is arguing there were fewer here then, but within the areas I worked, they kept a very low profile -- you didn't see these men and women in the malls. You might have seen them in a supermarket on occasion. The laundromat was a different story as many of their apartments/rooming houses didn't offer washers and dryers.



Quote:
Hate to argue semantics, but those are hardly synonymous with "flaunt" beyond a very loose, technical definition. Flaunt always has the connotation of overt "showy-ness" and in-your-face gusto in every sense of the word.
Please check your Roget's. If you don't have access to one, there are several online Thesaurus sites. One definition of flaunt as per Merriam Webster: 2 : to treat contemptuously.
That was the 'connotation' of flaunt which I had used.

Illegal aliens standing on the corner, or in front of HD, or in front of 7-11 looking to get hired, with no regard for our country's law, are behaving in a contemptuous manner.

Quote:
I'm only focusing on this one term because I thought it was ridiculous and comical, whatever debate or argument about work ethic or illegal immigration there is seeping into this thread I'm not really concerned with. There is no amount of stern language, sentimentality or patriotism that will ever make me care about the supposedly filthy scourge of illegal immigration and I already provided my spin on the "lazy kids" subject. I do think they're lazy, but it's only because their parents and our stupid culture equate manual labor and sweat with failure and poverty. Can't blame kids who have only had mowing a lawn dangled in front of their face as eternal damnation for screwing up in school and getting into the wrong college.
Were you a 'lazy kid' whose parents dangled lawn mowing in your face as eternal damnation for screwing up in school and getting into the wrong college?

Not every kid out there has parents who think in those terms. Some parents do instill a strong work ethic, some parents choose to place emphasis on academic success, others stress a good balance of the two and then there are those who are lazy and have no involvement in their child's upbringing.

You wouldn't be able to label all people of a certain race lazy, why is it acceptable to label all kids that?


Quote:
So if a non-illegal immigrant went to the mall or spoke amongst family in their native tongue they would also be flaunting.....what? Sorry but that sounds pretty silly to me, and obviously if you were happier with them hiding in the shadows like rats this is an aesthetic issue, since you say their presence at all is just as bad either way. There is no way that the act of shopping or walking down the street with a child in tow can somehow be representative of actively and intentionally flaunting/flouting a person's immigration legal status or anything else. Protesting, maybe....but anything else you could dream up is entirely passive. In these kinds of discussions I also like to point out that the United States, the state of New York and any of it's municipalities do not have an official language. Speaking Spanish and looking poor/dirty while residing in our country illegally is not on par with raping a baby in broad daylight with a smile on your face or something equally vile and brazen. I'm not the kind of person who sees things in simple black and white, good and bad, illegal and legal nor do I think the majority of people on here or anywhere are....so trying to harp on the "illegal" aspect of citizenship and liken it to flaunting a violent felony or similar type of crime is laughable to me.
I grew up around grandparents and other family speaking Spanish. Never did I write it was bad or wrong to speak a language other than English in public. I think it is wrong, however, when as an employee of a business (Sears, supermarket, etc.) in a customer service position speaks Spanish to their fellow employees in front of a client at the counter. I had that happen at the American Girl Doll store. I look very Anglo and they made the assumption I couldn't understand. They were bad mouthing another lady they had waited on. I made a point of informing the management.

You might not see things in black and white, but when illegal immigration impacts you personally, you might better understand those of us who can see things as illegal/legal.

Do you enjoy paying more in taxes to support the social programs illegals use but don't pay for?

I don't know whether you're a homeowner, but if you are, would you want to invest your money in a home, only to see a house on your street turn into a multiple tenant dwelling with an absentee landlord?



Quote:
Why did you feel the need to go on a preemptive defensive about race when the word "aesthetic" was used? We could just as easily be talking about Irish illegal immigrants or Russian illegal immigrants. I don't care what color your doctor or mailman is either.
Sean, you brought aesthetic into it in the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean
On the other side, are you saying that if illegal immigrants looked less like illegal immigrants and integrated themselves into society (less "flaunting") you would have no issue with them?! Is it just an aesthetic problem? That was a real doozy...
Again, I have no issue with legal immigrants. The illegal Mexican, Irishman, or Russian could be in a suit and tie strolling down Broadway, and I would still take issue to the main fact: THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALLY. It's not an aesthetic problem for this law abiding citizen. It's the illegals flouting the law with whom I have a problem.



Quote:
THIRTY YEARS AGO

THIRTY...

I started working in 1996, which is now quite a bit in the past, and by that time not one of those jobs would have come with a paper check. If there were zero illegal immigrants in the entire country those kinds of jobs would still, undoubtedly, be paying off the books in the year 2010.

Most of your posts in this thread keep coming back to the theme of things being so much intrinsically "better" at some time in the distant past. I don't want to play psychologist but I think it's probably something other than illegal immigrants, teenagers, manual labor jobs, etc. making you feel that way. I'm the same way, I constantly curse technology and the stupid crap people are hung up on and the world seemingly hurtling into this homogenized, faceless, nationless abyss of disposable culture and fiscally informed morality.....but there has to be a point where personal nostalgia ends and objectivity begins. The two cannot possibly co-exist when it comes to analyzing the reality around us.
I never said better -- please don't attribute words to me which I didn't write. Things were different, and somehow, they worked. Our politicians turned a blind eye to their constituents and allowed cheap, illegal labor to come into this country. It wasn't in our best interest, but in the best interest of large corporations.

Yes, over time our nation and our citizens have been on a downward spiral. Many people are far less honest in their dealings, people are trying to get over on others, people are in a hurry, people have turned cold. There is a lack of integrity, a lack of pride in a job well done (be it manual or white collar) and the almighty dollar has replaced God for a portion of the population. Some people are looking for a bargain at any price, and don't care who is ultimately hurt. Is this emotion or reality?

We are going off topic with our discussion.

The OP's post is about hiring illegal aliens to perform work at his home when for whatever reason, the men who were to do it backed out. The OP labeled Americans as lazy. Are you a lazy American? I doubt it. Do you accept being called lazy because someone backed out of working for the OP?

This thread struck a nerve. Yes. Why? Most of us won't admit if we've done something illegal, but when the OP came here, posted that he hired illegals and would do so again, while calling Americans lazy, I saw red.

Perhaps I am old fashioned.
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Old 06-30-2010, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Inis Fada
13,940 posts, read 16,669,659 times
Reputation: 4754
Quote:
Originally Posted by kajimenez View Post
There are many problems that are consequences of illegal immigrants that are crossing the border without proper identification. Let me ask you, where do you draw the line? 1 million, 10 million, 100 million? Or is there no line at all. Why even have a United States with borders? Why doesn't everyone come to the US whenever they want? Just come and go as you please. Do you see any problems with this whatsoever? There is a myriad of problems: burden on social system, exploitation of illegal immigrants, loss of tax revenue, criminals that cannot be identified (I know-minority of immigrants), large groups of men on corners where young girls walk to school, 60 people to a house thus overloading of sewer systems... and on and on. The blame does not fall on the individuals, but the inability to come up with a workable solution by the governement, federal, state and local. We can't just keep turning our heads to be politically correct. We can't just say, these are just poor migrant workers looking to make a living. If anyone tries to speak up, they are pegged a racist. We are the only country stumbling over our own political correctness.

The problem is that the government created this problem by allowing factories and such to exploit the cheap labor. Pols were taking care of their contributors.

In 1991 my friend became a CHP in SoCal. When he first went onto the job, they were able to pull ANY people over for infractions. A couple of years later they were instructed not to pull over Hispanics for fear of being accused of profiling. PC?

Not that this particular rule had anything to do with it, but the area he was assigned to went from being a $***hole to out of control dangerous. Hispanic gangs increased, lawlessness increased. When his partner was shot and killed in a routine traffic stop, he said it was time to transfer.

Borders must be secured. Laws must be equally enforced.
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Old 06-30-2010, 02:49 PM
 
573 posts, read 580,786 times
Reputation: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but View Post
The one who is illegal is in this country while not being known or acknowledged or authorized by the authorities. They have not been background checked. (Homeland Security does biographies on all immigrants.) They are not accounted for statistically, they can be terrorists and/or other kinds of criminals for all we know. (Homeland security does criminal background checks and has a terrorist watchlist.) They can have diseases. (All immigrants must pass a medical examination.) They are a burden on the system because of all the PC laws "allowing" them things like public assistance, Medicaid, etc., in certain cases (they know exactly how to go around the red tape and advise others who sneak into the country how to). If they reproduce on US soil, their offspring become a burden on the system when by rights they and their offspring should be a burden on the system of their native country, not here.

What if every poor person in every nation decided to come here and sneak in? How would you like America then? You should get on your hands and knees and thank God for airport security and thank God that only around the land borders it is possible to sneak in or we would be awash in third-world peasants that we could not support who would literally reproduce the squalor in their own countries. Think about it.

Sorry we cannot take them all. Just because you are seeing some and think it is "no big deal" does not mean it will stay that way. As long as we remain lax, the more the merrier. Then what?

I would love for anyone to travel to any country they wish at any given time. After all this should be a FREE world. I just cannot understand how a man can go to other lands with inhabitants then claim they discover it and claim it as their own but now in modern times people are pretty much doing the SAME thing and we consider it illegal. How can I be a criminal for WALKING ON GOD'S EARTH. LOL I just and will not get it.

The animals do it all the time for food or changing of weather, yet when we as human do it its ILLEGAL. LOL

BTW OP. I applaud you for what you did. You just put food on a child's table and gave a HUMAN BEING another chance to live to see the sun shine another day.
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Old 06-30-2010, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
15,855 posts, read 17,220,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thehouse View Post
I would love for anyone to travel to any country they wish at any given time. After all this should be a FREE world. I just cannot understand how a man can go to other lands with inhabitants then claim they discover it and claim it as their own but now in modern times people are pretty much doing the SAME thing and we consider it illegal. How can I be a criminal for WALKING ON GOD'S EARTH. LOL I just and will not get it.

The animals do it all the time for food or changing of weather, yet when we as human do it its ILLEGAL. LOL

BTW OP. I applaud you for what you did. You just put food on a child's table and gave a HUMAN BEING another chance to live to see the sun shine another day.
With the goals of globalization and the abolishment of separate countries, in the future, you may get what you wish for.

Just be aware that it is not going to be "more freedom" for people, but rather be prepared to be under a totalitarian global society: rationing of energy and resources, the abolishment of private property with people being told where you can and cannot live (the US being broken into different "zones" for different purposes). Personally I hope I am dead before we fully embrace globalization. See the U.N.'s Agenda 21 for more information.
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Old 06-30-2010, 07:08 PM
 
2,939 posts, read 5,718,815 times
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Yes, Agenda 21 is truly scary.

Local Agenda 21- The U.N. Plan for Your Community 21 1-10-98
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Old 06-30-2010, 09:56 PM
 
701 posts, read 826,685 times
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This is a very intersting and thought provoking thread.
Now, what really ticks me off- my son developed an abcess and had a dentist appt late in the morning. However, he awoke early to a face totally blown up and great pain. The dentist had said that it could be dangerous so we went to the ER. The Dr at the ER had a real bad attitude and did nothing-absolutely NOTHING for him but told him to go to Stonybrook. Stormed out and that's all he did. Son should have had at least an antibiotic and a little bedside manner would not have hurt. So here is my gripe- my son got a bill for the ER for over $700! At this time, he has no insurance. Now, if he were illegal and had the sniffles, he would have seen the Dr for free, gotten meds for free. Instead, WE are paying for the ones that DON"T belong here with inflated costs!
Actually, they can kiss off with that bill. They will get $10 a month for how ever long it takes.
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Old 06-30-2010, 11:06 PM
 
1,862 posts, read 1,478,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J5K5LY View Post
This is a very intersting and thought provoking thread.
Now, what really ticks me off- my son developed an abcess and had a dentist appt late in the morning. However, he awoke early to a face totally blown up and great pain. The dentist had said that it could be dangerous so we went to the ER. The Dr at the ER had a real bad attitude and did nothing-absolutely NOTHING for him but told him to go to Stonybrook. Stormed out and that's all he did. Son should have had at least an antibiotic and a little bedside manner would not have hurt. So here is my gripe- my son got a bill for the ER for over $700! At this time, he has no insurance. Now, if he were illegal and had the sniffles, he would have seen the Dr for free, gotten meds for free. Instead, WE are paying for the ones that DON"T belong here with inflated costs!
Actually, they can kiss off with that bill. They will get $10 a month for how ever long it takes.

Not quite how it works. Yes they get seen, but they usually use the wrong name and information and give faulty address' and phone numbers. Thus the bills are lost in the mail. If you didn't recieve treatment I would bring that up and fight the charges, if what you say is correct. They should pair down the bill a bit.
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