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What you're probably not aware of is that during the 1990s, municipal governments were not required to contribute to the pension system for several years because the stock market and the pension system were doing very well. Most of those municipalities used those monies for other things instead of addressing the possibility that they would once again need to pay pension costs. The increased pension payments this year and next are merely evening out what should have occurred over the past 20 years.
Evening out nothing.
Especially making up for an alleged 20 years in one huge lump.
We shouldn't "owe" any unions an 8% return on their pension money.
When was the last time a CD paid 8%?
Please tell me how the taxpayers are supposed to pay for this? Especially in a recession with high unemployment.
Go ahead and continue killing the golden goose!
18karat said it best in Newsday's comments:
Quote:
"Having to make up shortfalls because of market conditions applies to all defined benefit plans that apply to both public and private pensions. The real problem is that while the private sector has stopped funding defined benefit plans (so-called "pensions") and reverted to defined contribution plans (so-called 401K's), the public system continues it's onward march to oblivion. Thye can easily convert to a 401k when renewing contracts which will allow the municipalities to freeze the pensions where they are today, contribute cash to the employees 401K's which is out of current cash flow and not a new unfunded future liability and finally save NYS from a senario where they declare Chapter 9 bankruptcy and everyone losses everything. Wake up public employees and employers, this game cannot go on without distroying everything everyone worked for, both public and private. The private sector has given it's share, now it's your turn."
I just want to slightly nitpick your terms so as not to set off the people from a certain beverage-related political subgroup. No one expects *free* healthcare- what most proponents of the current system seek is to break up the third parties that administrate insurance and drive our costs up for profit.
I'd happily pay a rate similar to what my friends in Germany or my boyfriend in England or in-laws in Ireland pay for awesome, single-payer care. The great irony of the tea partiers is that they've been so easily convinced to take to lawns with their silly signs to protest the rights of corporations to trample all over them. It's not the middle and working class that are threatening our livelihoods- it's the corporations that are trying to squeeze every last bit of bloody profit out of an already strapped American public.
When I see these people on TV who probably live in trailers with no access to medical care and no future arguing for the rights of BCBS to keep bleeding us dry, I want to shake them, cry, and become Canadian. It would be funny if it wasn't so freaking sad.
Yep, a buddy of mine in Scotland (ex-pat, married a Scotsman) was the one who got me thinking about Germany, as she mentioned it to me yesterday. Frankly, if it means I can get hit by a bus and not have to worry about dealing with the idiots at UHC/Oxford, raise my taxes, PLEASE. (Better yet, stop using my tax dollars for moronic wars, but that's a little bit too far OT here.)
I'm of the mind that one person's illness shouldn't be another person's cash cow, so I see absolutely no place for capitalism and profit in health care. Every other civilized country in the world has some kind of nationalized health care. So should we. But, you know, we hear all kinds of blather, dither, and tripe about "personal accountability," "freedom of choice," and, OMG!!!!! SOCIALISM!
Gimme a break already. Give the "personal accountability" spiel to a woman with the BRCA genes. Spew about "freedom of choice" after you need surgery and slog your way through a system in which some paper-pusher with zero health credentials can decide to deny your claims and send you into bankruptcy because covering your illness cuts into share-holder profits. And the nonsense about nationalized health care being "socialist" is just fear-mongering from people who stand to buy a summer home when someone else gets leukemia. It's sickening, literally.
And the system in New York is the worst I've ever dealt with. It's a racket here. There are doctors who won't renew a scrip for blood pressure medication unless you schlep to their office. Why? They can bill the insurance companies $500 for the visit. Cha-ching! Oh, bite me. I have an [URL="http://www.omronhealthcare.com/"]Omron[/URL]. When my BP gets too high, I'll call and come in. (Or stop reading C-D posts about cops and teachers, depending.)
But teachers are the enemy. Cops are the enemy. County workers are the enemy. BAH!
Amen, holy sheet, where's the Tylenol?
P.S. I use "you" in the general sense.
Last edited by Yzette; 09-03-2010 at 04:17 PM..
Reason: I can haz typos?
Especially making up for an alleged 20 years in one huge lump.
We shouldn't "owe" any unions an 8% return on their pension money.
When was the last time a CD paid 8%?
Please tell me how the taxpayers are supposed to pay for this? Especially in a recession with high unemployment.
Go ahead and continue killing the golden goose!
18karat said it best in Newsday's comments:
yep. yep. yep. That is exactly what my company did a few years ago. People close to retirement really got hurt because the benefit formula ramped up dramatically for people over 60 , with greater than 25 years of service. They froze the pension numbers and converted to a cash balance plan starting at $0.00.
Nothing to do with career choices - this is the reality for those of us that do not have piggish unions protecting our rear ends.
My company used to be generous with health benefits after retirement - that stopped also. No guarantees anymore. Union people won't get this until they start getting laid off !
Especially making up for an alleged 20 years in one huge lump.
We shouldn't "owe" any unions an 8% return on their pension money.
When was the last time a CD paid 8%?
Please tell me how the taxpayers are supposed to pay for this? Especially in a recession with high unemployment.
Go ahead and continue killing the golden goose!
18karat said it best in Newsday's comments:
Your anger has apparently clouded your understanding of the situation. Nobody's guaranteeing a return of 8% on pensions. The 8% figure is what had been traditionally used to figure the annual return on pensions. That number, plus the contributions to the system, are supposed to support the current and future needs of the system.
The change in current calculations to a more realistic 7.5% has resulted in a need for additional funding of the system. And they're not making up for 20 years. What they're doing is making up for recent market losses. Even considering this, the NYS system is 94% funded -- highest among all the states in the nation.
Finally, you're not "owing the unions an 8% return on their pension money." The pension system exists for the benefit of all employees of the state -- union or not. Check out the pension systems of other states and you'll find that NYS is far from being the most generous, despite you may believe.
Your anger has apparently clouded your understanding of the situation. Nobody's guaranteeing a return of 8% on pensions. The 8% figure is what had been traditionally used to figure the annual return on pensions. That number, plus the contributions to the system, are supposed to support the current and future needs of the system.
The change in current calculations to a more realistic 7.5% has resulted in a need for additional funding of the system. And they're not making up for 20 years. What they're doing is making up for recent market losses. Even considering this, the NYS system is 94% funded -- highest among all the states in the nation.
Finally, you're not "owing the unions an 8% return on their pension money." The pension system exists for the benefit of all employees of the state -- union or not. Check out the pension systems of other states and you'll find that NYS is far from being the most generous, despite you may believe.
We can argue semantics all you want, but the BOTTOM LINE is just that, the BOTTOM LINE ... which equals MORE MONEY OUT OF TAXPAYERS' POCKETS FOR THE BENEFIT OF A SELECT FEW ... TO THE DETRIMENT OF ALL TAXPAYERS WHO ARE NOT NYS EMPLOYEES:
Once again, here are the numbers from the news source. Try and deflect away from that with the "you don't understand blah blah blah" stuff:
Quote:
Public pension costs will increase by tens of millions of dollars for Nassau and Suffolk counties in 2012 - a 30 percent increase from 2011 - under new funding rates set Thursday by state Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli.
The move was a reaction to the economic collapse of 2008 and 2009 and erratic financial markets that caused the New York's Common Retirement Fund to fall $8 billion in value to $124.8 billion in the second quarter of 2010, DiNapoli said.
In Nassau, pension contributions would increase from $114 million in 2011 to about $147 million in 2012, a $33-million jump, according to Timothy Sullivan, deputy county executive for finance. Nassau Comptroller George Maragos called the increase "shocking," noting, "It's going to be not quite devastating - but close."
Suffolk's bill is going from $136 million in 2011 to $178.2 million in 2012, a $42.2-million increase. Suffolk County Executive Steve Levy said: "This increase is very significant, and it is a further indication that there is a crying need to change the public sector pension system."
Nassau County taxpayers are going to be hammered for an additional $33,000,000.00, as if $114,000,000.00 was not enough!
Suffolk County taxpayers are going to be hammered for an additional $42,200,000.00, as if $136,000,000.00 was not enough!
What part of "we cannot AFFORD to hand out anymore money, you will have to make do with what's in your pension fund just like we have to make do with what's in our 401ks" DON'T you and the unions understand?
yep. yep. yep. That is exactly what my company did a few years ago. People close to retirement really got hurt because the benefit formula ramped up dramatically for people over 60 , with greater than 25 years of service. They froze the pension numbers and converted to a cash balance plan starting at $0.00.
Nothing to do with career choices - this is the reality for those of us that do not have piggish unions protecting our rear ends.
My company used to be generous with health benefits after retirement - that stopped also. No guarantees anymore. Union people won't get this until they start getting laid off !
Another person who thinks that since they got screwed, everyone else should as well. You all should be directing your anger at the people who are destroying you jobs, salaries and benefits and at the same time taking that money and putting it in their own pockets. Don't take this as a "redistribution of wealth" thing, it's just that the difference between the top end guys and the regular guys (and gals) has become too great. Does the public sector have it good now? Yes. But that's because the private sector is becoming a two class system and it seems that many of you are OK with that as long as other people go down the tubes with you or if you are in the upper class.
And FYI a union cannot prevent you from being laid off. But it can prevent you from being the person who gets fired because someones sister needs a job or some other person says will do your job for less.
Another person who thinks that since they got screwed, everyone else should as well. You all should be directing your anger at the people who are destroying you jobs, salaries and benefits and at the same time taking that money and putting it in their own pockets. Don't take this as a "redistribution of wealth" thing, it's just that the difference between the top end guys and the regular guys (and gals) has become too great. Does the public sector have it good now? Yes. But that's because the private sector is becoming a two class system and it seems that many of you are OK with that as long as other people go down the tubes with you or if you are in the upper class.
And FYI a union cannot prevent you from being laid off. But it can prevent you from being the person who gets fired because someones sister needs a job or some other person says will do your job for less.
Another person who thinks that since they got screwed, everyone else should as well. You all should be directing your anger at the people who are destroying you jobs, salaries and benefits and at the same time taking that money and putting it in their own pockets. Don't take this as a "redistribution of wealth" thing, it's just that the difference between the top end guys and the regular guys (and gals) has become too great.
Like I said previously in this thread, that would be the corporations who rule this corpocracy (don't call it a democracy anymore) and their pet politicians that they shower with money. Don't think I am not angry at them for one second. However to fix this, it would literally take dismantling our entire system of government and dismantling both major political parties. A very bloody revolution with the elites at the top pulling out all the stops to try and crush the rest of us people. However, it could happen if unemployment gets worse. One thing the American public has is plenty of guns. The sheeple just need to get mad enough to put them to use. I am sure the French royalty didn't expect the peasants to dare thwart them, yet there was the French Revolution ... so there is still hope for the common person in the USA. A new American revolution killing off the leeches who are hoarding most of the country's wealth (which they could not spend if they lived 1,000 years, the greedy pigs) would not bother me in the least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nassau2suffolk
Does the public sector have it good now? Yes. But that's because the private sector is becoming a two class system and it seems that many of you are OK with that as long as other people go down the tubes with you or if you are in the upper class.
The UNIONIZED public sector has it good now and that's only because they can literally clobber the taxpayers. The non-unionized public sector, not so much. And they have it good not because of anything going on in the private sector, but only because there is a total and complete lack of accountability when it comes to spending on employees because they don't have to EARN any profits, they just have to get some politician, elected official, etc., to TAKE more money from the taxpayers by force.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nassau2suffolk
And FYI a union cannot prevent you from being laid off. But it can prevent you from being the person who gets fired because someones sister needs a job or some other person says will do your job for less.
A union is also good for paying certain connected people a salary for no-show jobs. Unions have also proven to be absolutely PERFECT as vehicles for organized crime.
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By all means, let's finish off the Golden Goose!
