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Old 01-30-2011, 06:27 PM
 
924 posts, read 1,144,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Commenter View Post
All federal gov't (GS) and state and local civil service jobs have due process protection. In public school teaching it is called tenure. Layoffs in these same sectors is generally done on a seniority basis. Due process protections are viewed as a defense against nepotism, irrational management, first amendment issues, political bias, race-based decision making, etc etc. That is not to say that due process (tenure) protection always works to the benefit of the public.
Very well put! Neither system is perfect, and since you can't really quantify a teacher's performance in an objective manner, that means that most teachers would be fired for cost over any other factor if no tenure rules existed.
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Old 01-30-2011, 07:11 PM
 
Location: Long Island
8,893 posts, read 3,024,514 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Commenter View Post
All federal gov't (GS) and state and local civil service jobs have due process protection. In public school teaching it is called tenure. Layoffs in these same sectors is generally done on a seniority basis. Due process protections are viewed as a defense against nepotism, irrational management, first amendment issues, political bias, race-based decision making, etc etc. That is not to say that due process (tenure) protection always works to the benefit of the public.
Due process almost never works at the federal level or for teachers, I doubt if anyone would be willing to waste their time and district money to follow through on a wasted effort. I don't doubt that were extremely remote instances of firing for unsubstantiated reasons but tenure makes it impossible to fire teachers for obvious incompetence.

Just curious of NY State employees in general are covered by due process.
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Old 01-30-2011, 10:52 PM
 
Location: Inis Fada
13,904 posts, read 16,529,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreciousMonster View Post
So, because your son said that this gym teacher "taught gym and directed traffic," means that it must be true.
Please prove that it wasn't.

Looking back at earlier posts it is apparent that you're a teacher who has something of an issue with the 3V school district. Seeing as you can't lash out at the gym teacher's salary (don't want to stab your own in the back) you've decided to attack my son's credibility instead.
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Old 01-30-2011, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Inis Fada
13,904 posts, read 16,529,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DogsImDone View Post
I was curious about this and did a Google on the man. I found a website that showed he was getting just under $58,000 in 95-96 year. He was in the teacher column.
Administrators' & Teachers' Salaries 1995-1996
His pay went up almost a hundred thousand dollars in 14 years. I wish I had his job!
On a cache district page he was listed as a staff person. Two other people were the phys Ed department heads.

My personal experience driving limos to the school during the prom season was meeting him as he directed prom traffic into the parking lot. The school has a huge prom enterance parade so about 6 people handle the traffic in and oversea what the kids are doing in the parking lot when they wait for the parade to start. Not only did he guide us into the lane to line up but he came over and checked that there wasn't anything like booze or drugs in the car. The kids were talking after he left and it seemed that because he is missing an eye, he does some security and limited gym instruction.

You are anonymously sitting at a keyboard insulting a person who's kid went to the school and seems to have a good idea what the man does. Do you work there? Can you give us more info?

Thank you for taking the time to post this. I've gone to the Waking Bear site many times for different posts and blogging. I should have included that in my initial post about this gym teacher.
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Inis Fada
13,904 posts, read 16,529,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Commenter View Post
I don't have a dog in this fight but 15 year olds are sometimes wrong and he/she may not be in a position to know the additional duties a teacher might take on to earn addtional pay. That being said, the highest paid teachers in my school district have worked 30 years and earn about 125,000.00 in base salary this year. With coaching, supervising (including charperoning), teaching an additional class, clubs, overnight trips, etc etc it would be possible for a few of these teachers (phys ed or otherwise) to make about $150,000. Most of the teachers in the district seem to earn about $60,000.00 a year after working about 10 years and with advanced derees. I am not saying this is good or bad I am just noting this as a fact.
He's 18, not 15. I don't know where that number came from as I had written previously that he graduated last year at the same time the gym teacher retired.

I can confirm 4DogsI'mDone's comment about traffic control on prom night. Digging around I found BoE minutes. Said gym teacher was paid
"WMHS Senior Prom 6/24/2010 $36.55(hour) $365.50"
"WMHS Graduation Day 6/27/2010 $36.55(hour) $182.75"

He did handle some security at the school which probably amounted to a couple of thousand dollar stipend. I can not find anything on the BoE website to address any addional pay for that.

Can not confirm a trip chaperone spot at this time as he doesn't show up on BoE minutes in any chaperone lists.

We do know he was at the school for at 30 years. The BoE minutes of February 9, 2010 list him as a retirement hired 12/3/79, retiring 6/30/2010 and lists his position as "Ward Melville Physical Education Teacher"

One thing I did find in the minutes, which seems rather excessive, is that the district needed him and 42 other teachers to "Supervise Fall Sports" at $23.77/hour prior to 6 PM and $35.66 after 6 PM school days.

(Note: The 43 teachers split between 1 HS & 2 Jr HS)

He was down again for early winter/winter/late winter spots supervision at the same rate of pay. Ditto for Spring.

Also noticed that those supervising the sports are not the coaches.

It would appear that he padded his last years' salary with whatever he could pick up. Depending on what time his day ended (school let out at 1:54 PM) he could have really stuck it to the taxpayers racking up the hours for 'supervising' sports which already had coaches, assistant coaches and more supervisors supervising.

His wife, however, is only mentioned once in the BoE minutes for Graduation Day. Her rate was less than her husband's.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:54 AM
 
803 posts, read 697,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhBeeHave View Post
He's 18, not 15. I don't know where that number came from as I had written previously that he graduated last year at the same time the gym teacher retired.

I can confirm 4DogsI'mDone's comment about traffic control on prom night. Digging around I found BoE minutes. Said gym teacher was paid
"WMHS Senior Prom 6/24/2010 $36.55(hour) $365.50"
"WMHS Graduation Day 6/27/2010 $36.55(hour) $182.75"

He did handle some security at the school which probably amounted to a couple of thousand dollar stipend. I can not find anything on the BoE website to address any addional pay for that.

Can not confirm a trip chaperone spot at this time as he doesn't show up on BoE minutes in any chaperone lists.

We do know he was at the school for at 30 years. The BoE minutes of February 9, 2010 list him as a retirement hired 12/3/79, retiring 6/30/2010 and lists his position as "Ward Melville Physical Education Teacher"

One thing I did find in the minutes, which seems rather excessive, is that the district needed him and 42 other teachers to "Supervise Fall Sports" at $23.77/hour prior to 6 PM and $35.66 after 6 PM school days.

(Note: The 43 teachers split between 1 HS & 2 Jr HS)

He was down again for early winter/winter/late winter spots supervision at the same rate of pay. Ditto for Spring.

Also noticed that those supervising the sports are not the coaches.

It would appear that he padded his last years' salary with whatever he could pick up. Depending on what time his day ended (school let out at 1:54 PM) he could have really stuck it to the taxpayers racking up the hours for 'supervising' sports which already had coaches, assistant coaches and more supervisors supervising.

His wife, however, is only mentioned once in the BoE minutes for Graduation Day. Her rate was less than her husband's.
It is not surprising your son did not know of all the additonal duties the phys ed teacher was doing. Whether or not his additional stipends were a last year effort as you suggest is something one would not ordinarily know without looking at his previous years' activities. It appears there is a bit of family conclusion jumping going on.
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Kings Park & Jamesport
2,438 posts, read 5,648,953 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastrudy View Post
I pick on the teachers because if you do that search more than 80% of the pensions >$200,000 are from the NYS Teachers.

I doubt that. the max reirement pension for teachers is 75% of their final average salary (thats only with 37.5 years of service). I think those over $200,000 would be administrators. You are hating the wrong group.
Correct assessment!
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Old 01-31-2011, 08:28 AM
 
219 posts, read 249,128 times
Reputation: 138
Default Same old same old

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomonlineli View Post
Very well put! Neither system is perfect, and since you can't really quantify a teacher's performance in an objective manner, that means that most teachers would be fired for cost over any other factor if no tenure rules existed.
I think just like any business, you dont let your talent go.. If a teacher is being laid off due to cost, he or she is probably not worth that cost... In which case, it is fine.. I dont want my children being educated by a mediocre teacher just because there is a chance of some type of discrimination..... Why should my child have to suffer that stupidity
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Inis Fada
13,904 posts, read 16,529,671 times
Reputation: 4704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Commenter View Post
It is not surprising your son did not know of all the additonal duties the phys ed teacher was doing. Whether or not his additional stipends were a last year effort as you suggest is something one would not ordinarily know without looking at his previous years' activities. It appears there is a bit of family conclusion jumping going on.


How do you arrive at 'family conclusion jumping' when I've supplied the board with data indicating, provided the past three years of salary for the individual, and another board member who has worked within the district, posted that teachers put in more hours during their last years to increase their pay?

http://www.city-data.com/forum/17645878-post46.html

http://www.city-data.com/forum/17271261-post5.html

C-D member whose spouse is a teacher:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/17271664-post10.html

We do know that for the past three years, the man's pay rose from $143,828 in 2008 to $147,356 in 2009 with final pay at retirement of $152,670.
We also know that his pay was $57,959 in 95-96

According to BoE he had a 'reassignment' as of the Sept 07 board meeting; another teacher was hired to instruct PE in his place.

2007-08, 2008-09, 2009-10 the last three years he is reassigned.
What I find curious is his 'reassignment' -- postion not specified as the BoE records only go back to 9/07 -- and how it coincides with the start of his last three years.

I pulled another gym teacher's name up from the Waking Bear website (95-96 data) and looked at his 08, 09, 10 figures. In an effort to try and compare apples to apples, the second gym teacher is the HS lacrosse coach as well; he is receiving an allowance for that role.
2nd Gym teacher/lacrosse coach's 95-96 salary was $62,250.
08 = $109,834
09 = $114,432
10 = $123,932

Gym teacher #2 was making almost $4,300 more in 95-96, yet somewhere between 96-2007 gym teacher #1's salary surpassed him by $33,994 in 2008.

If we had access to 2006-2007 it might answer our questions.

What I find interesting is that opposed to questioning why so many supervisors are needed to supervise seasonal sports, why a Phys Ed teacher (BoE classification at retirement) should earn $150K+ is that you would rather accuse me of 'conclusion jumping'.

Last edited by OhBeeHave; 01-31-2011 at 09:53 AM..
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Inis Fada
13,904 posts, read 16,529,671 times
Reputation: 4704
Quote:
Originally Posted by tummymumma View Post
I think just like any business, you dont let your talent go.. If a teacher is being laid off due to cost, he or she is probably not worth that cost... In which case, it is fine.. I dont want my children being educated by a mediocre teacher just because there is a chance of some type of discrimination..... Why should my child have to suffer that stupidity
Like a hausfrau who was once shapely and attractive who has let herself go following marriage, there are some teachers who burn out or bide time once becoming tenured.

I agree that it isn't easy to assess whether a teacher is or isn't doing their job, but there are indicators and red lights when one is biding time. We experienced one such teacher who parents nicknamed 'the lost year'. Homework went unchecked, tests graded as though the teacher was distracted (correct things marked incorrectly and visa versa); the class falling behind the other four grade level classes in terms of material being taught. The students in that class entered the next year behind their peers academically. This would have been a perfect candidate for potential dismissal -- if they hadn't been tenured.

For the most part, I have to write my children have had many great teachers and very few clunkers. Despite my being dismayed by an overpaid gym teacher, there are plenty of teachers in the district who are worth what they're being paid.
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