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Old 02-18-2010, 03:42 PM
 
1,303 posts, read 2,026,581 times
Reputation: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by azzurrony View Post
Jrprofessor,

Do you really expect us to believe that the elected officials who approved these contracts, which have all but doubled our taxes in the last few years, are not corrupt? They are the definition of corrupt. They are not acting in the best interests of those they represent. Instead, they cater to the unions because the unions are incredibly well organized and turn out the vote everytime. It is in their best interest to reward the unions so they continue getting elected. That's why they simply rubber stamp contracts that are borderline theft. Have you seen the details of these contracts? They rob from the many to give to the few. They are the Reverse Robin Hood of the public sector. Under your theory, these politicians are simply absent and have no clue what they are voting on. Come on...they know exactly what they are doing.

Teachers can be good people and still be greedy. Those two elements are not mutually exclusive. Why is that so hard to understand? There is no other term to use other than greed. When so many of their fellow taxpayers are struggling, the teachers allow their unions to keep pushing for these salaries and benefits. It's greed. Sure, everyone is susceptible to this. Sure, everyone is self-interested at times. But, that doesn't mean this is right.

So, you are saying that teachers who know Long Island, who researched the area and will probably be living in our community, have no clue that our school taxes are so high here? Even if that were true, which I disagree with, then what about the active teachers who have lived and worked here a long time. Surely, they must know the fiscal pressures on Long Island each time contract time comes up?
You missed my point and I simply disagree with some of your preconceptions. Nothing personal by the way.

I do not think it is a stretch to think that politicians are mostly absent...they are mostly idiots. I do not see the influence a local mayor or the county exec or the local congressman have on a local teachers union contract. Not sure where the "corrupt" politician comes into play in teacher's salaries. If anything local political pressure has been against such things based on current populist rhetoric. I do not see the corrolation. I do see the corrolation with rubber stamp school boards (if that is what you meant by politicians, but in your earlier comments you differentiated which is what I was responding to)...as I acknowledged in earlier threads. Incumbents win...this is true in all types of elections. It is called voter apathy, not the great mysterious teachers union voting drives. That has been happening everywhere for decades.

And your implication is that the vast majority of teachers in a district are nodding their heads and helping plan how they are going to payoff school board members with voter turnout. To the contrary, most teachers are not NEARLY that active or aware of their union contract. They come to the general meetings held one to two times a year, and hear whispered comments leading up to contract time from their local school union rep. Then they all look at their new salary scale to see what it means to their wallet...that's, kind of, it...

And I am not sure what your reference to teachers not knowing how high taxes are is in response to...I was commenting on your comments that when a teacher accepts a job they "know the impact they are having on taxes." I do not think they think that far ahead, or are that sophisticated. They are simply accepting a job that was offered. You are painting this picture of some big social consideration and fiscal analysis that a new hire goes through when choosing to take an open gym teacher spot....they are just happily accepting a job offer.

I do not see their "greed" as different than any other person looking to move up in salary and career. That being said, again, I fully believe you can get the same teachers at a 20% reduction. I just do not see this sinister greedy sentiment on the part of long island teachers that you see. I see a union trying to get its members paid, and apathetic elected officials. Neither of those two concepts are particular to the long island teacher population. That is how politics and unions have been running for decades across this country. Again, can we get teachers for 20% yes, absolutely. I have no dispute with that...

 
Old 02-18-2010, 03:43 PM
 
1,303 posts, read 2,026,581 times
Reputation: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotkarl View Post
Every last thing on this Island relates to money.
That's all that matters here, money and status.
Morals are all but extinct.
Some people pretend to care, but it's all part of a personal agenda. That's just the way it is. I don't care if you're a cop, teacher, doctor, lawyer, whatever.
It's all about money. Money money money and screw everyone else.
Me me me. Mine mine mine.
Nobody gives a damn anymore.
The Island has become a mecca for arrogance and self.
Every other person is convinced they are better, and more important then the next.
This is very evident in the school systems.
Dude...where do you live...it sounds terrible!!!
 
Old 02-18-2010, 03:58 PM
 
Location: New Orleans, LA
239 posts, read 332,849 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by azzurrony View Post
BigMike,

Did you ever think we have strong students and low crime because we live in one of the wealthiest areas of the country?

Real median income levels in Long Island are quite high. That translates into parents who actively push their kids to do well in school...it also translates usually to lower crime.

In my opinion, the teachers and the cops on LI have one of the easiest jobs around. Take all of the NCPD and all of the Nassau teachers and switch their jobs with the New Orleans police department and schools. How do you think that would work out? LOL

The people in Long Island that say "We have the best teachers" or "we have the best cops" are dumb. They don't understand demographics and the connection between income level, education, and crime. They are being fooled and tricked by the police and teacher unions to think that the LI teachers and cops are inherently more talented than what you find in the rest of the country. Sorry to say..they aren't..they are just paid more...and that's the only difference.
Funny you should mention it. I'm going to be moving to New Orleans (and teaching there) if all goes as planned. I do work in one of the toughest districts on Long Island, so I think I'll be able to handle it. Wish me luck! (Sorry to get off topic; that just jumped out at me)!
 
Old 02-18-2010, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
15,524 posts, read 15,214,989 times
Reputation: 6201
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMike50 View Post
I need more info than this How much do they make in the PRIVATE SECTOR? I ask what you did and you won't answer me Are we talking about Doctors or busboys? Who are we comparing the teachers/cops salaries againts? I know some people that make 8 $ and hour and some making 750K a year all I know is it costs a lot more to live on Long Island than most places.....and that's a fact!
Good question! Thanks. I think that what we are talking about is not the highs and lows of income on Long Island, but the median income. I went to the "Long Island Index" webpage to try and find the most recent statistics. So far the latest information on income I could find was in their 2009 report:

Long Island Index: 2009 Report & Key Findings

First of all, please note that their statistics on income are based not on individual income, but "income for a family of four," with the statistics reflecting at least two working people bringing in an income. So keep that in mind when comparing it to your PUBLIC sector salary for one individual.

When it comes to the actual numbers, they have a line chart from 2007 with divided into increments of 50,000 which represents the following data sectors: "Long Island Top 10% Income," "Long Island Median" (this is the one we are most interested in), "Long Island Bottom 10% Income," and "U.S. Median." There is no actual data table, nor data labels, so, unfortunately the numbers have to be guesstimated, but we can come somewhat close. If you zoom in on the line chart, for the last year of data available, it looks like the LI Median (for a family of 4) is in the high $90's and the U.S. Median is slightly below that. So we could divide this by 2 (remember, it's total family income, not single) and give the LI median individual income a tentative number of $49,000. So compare that to the teacher and police incomes that the taxpayers consider overly burdensome. Also try and take into account the added value of a pension (rather than the 401(k) of the private sector) and the less costly health insurance coverage and that adds thousands in favor of the public sector.

Here is a little more information regarding how the average LI family is doing financially:

Quote:
How are we doing?

Looking at the long-term trend from 1998 to 2007:

Real incomes for households in the bottom 10% actually dropped 4%.

Real incomes for households at the top 10% rose by 9%.

Median household income has been relatively stagnant.

Median household income has declined relatively steadily since 2003. In constant 2007 dollars, the typical household of four earned 6% less in 2007 as compared to 2003.

These patterns indicate a widening of income inequality on Long Island and an increased economic burden on Long Island households.
Perhaps now you can muster up some little bit of sympathy for the middle class private sector worker who lives on LI? I won't hold my breath because your answer will most likely be, "Move away like I did if you don't like paying the high taxes!"

Although, if everyone took your advice, what do you think will happen to Long Island?

I say, for those of us who want to stay here, why can't we renegotiate these union contracts to better reflect economic reality? We cannot keep having our property taxes doubled every few years. It will come to a breaking point. My problem is less with the salary levels, but with the post-employment entitlements promised in these union contracts like fully-paid health benefits instead of what everyone else has (Medicare) and pensions plus Social Security instead of what everyone else has (401ks plus Social Security). I am not advocating this for "just teachers and police" but for all public employees. The New York State retirement benefits paid out are astronomical and we can't afford this anymore. From New York State Office of the State Comptroller:

Quote:
Estimated value (as of December 31, 2009): $129.4 billion, third largest pension plan in the United States.

3,021 state and local government employers participate in the pension system.

More than one million members, retirees and beneficiaries.

$6.84 billion paid out in benefits in 2008.
My problem is also with the highly paid and probably mostly useless administrations. I would rather have more teachers and less of them. As seen with the Roslyn SD theft fiasco, a perpetrator was jailed, yet is still entitled to his annual pension of $179K. Things like this have got to stop.

Since we are specifically talking about teachers in this thread, here is a

Searchable database of pensions paid by New York State Teacher Retirement System

If anyone else out there can come up with better and more recent statistics of what is considered "middle class income" on LI for Mike to compare to the public sector, I would appreciate any additional thoughts. Also if anyone can find the above database in a non-Newsday format, I would appreciate a link to that in case some C-D members cannot see it.
 
Old 02-18-2010, 08:38 PM
 
5,856 posts, read 6,624,690 times
Reputation: 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
A bunch of anecdotes and sweeping generalizations do not a good post make.
Yoda...is that you?
 
Old 02-19-2010, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Wallens Ridge
3,108 posts, read 2,263,080 times
Reputation: 17167
Default Teachers..Unions,taxes, pay on L.I.

Moderator cut: comment A few points I wanted to make. You will never get the teacher's to accept a reduction in pay on L.I. or most or the Northeast (strong unions) Looks what happened the other day in R.I.
Central Falls to fire every high school teacher | Education | projo.com | The Providence Journal


Now look what is happening in Central Va. the school superintendent has asked and volunteered for a reduction in pay 7 % which comes out to 15k
Chesterfield School Superintendent Pay Cut - wtvr (http://www.wtvr.com/news/newsome-salary-cut-budget,0,2840085.story - broken link)

He's also asking and will probably get all teacher's and staff to cut their salaries by 3-4% to help balance the budget in this economic downturn. Instead of just constantly raising taxes, we all should pitch in attitude. Maybe this could also happen on L.I. and make it a more doable place to live.

Last edited by Keeper; 02-19-2010 at 05:59 PM.. Reason: discussing mod actions not allowed per the ToS
 
Old 02-19-2010, 08:42 AM
 
Location: In my house
3,047 posts, read 4,479,277 times
Reputation: 1090
Never gonna happen. Nobody will give up anything voluntarily or without a fight to the death otherwise. Just aint gonna happen, nope nope nope.
Not on "Me" Island.
 
Old 02-19-2010, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Huntington
870 posts, read 1,679,084 times
Reputation: 447
Besides teachers' high pay, guaranteed jobs through tenure, and their extremely generous health care benefits while they are working, after teachers retire we all foot the bill for their pensions and healthcare benefits they receive for the rest of their lives. Multiply the number of retired teachers and administrators by their retirement packages and watch the numbers increase year by year exponentially.

And of course they receive social security benefits on top of that.

And they also have their 401Ks as well.

I don't know about the rest of you, but we have been trying very hard here to scrimp and save every $ for years. We do have a 401K (don't know what it will actually be worth when we really will need it), and that's it. We will receive social security when the time comes, if it's still viable, and that's about it.

So we try to save and save and save. While the teachers don't have to save a dime for the future. They can live from paycheck to paycheck knowing they have no pressure about the future. The teachers and administrators know the rest of us will be forking over the money we need ourselves for their living costs, which include their vacation condos and their necessary trips to Europe each year.

Real nice gravy train setup they have, isn't it? No one is worth that. No teacher is that spectacular they need to be set up for the rest of their lives.
 
Old 02-19-2010, 12:00 PM
 
152 posts, read 306,754 times
Reputation: 98
It's not gonna happen while the unions have so much power. The teacher's union is one of the most powerful in the state.

I believe there was a dsitrict out east last year that asked the teachers to make some concessions to save some jobs, and they said no.

As p.p. said, why would you give up that retirement plan? You can blow all the money you want every month, knowing one day you're going to sit back and collect a 6 figure pension. I'd rather take my chances on getting fired.

ANyone interested in this topic, tune in to Fox Business (not Fox News) channel. John Stossel is doing a big expose on public employees abuse of these systems.
 
Old 02-19-2010, 12:12 PM
 
7,224 posts, read 7,103,154 times
Reputation: 2798
Quote:
Originally Posted by brimasa View Post
It's not gonna happen while the unions have so much power. The teacher's union is one of the most powerful in the state.

I believe there was a dsitrict out east last year that asked the teachers to make some concessions to save some jobs, and they said no.

As p.p. said, why would you give up that retirement plan? You can blow all the money you want every month, knowing one day you're going to sit back and collect a 6 figure pension. I'd rather take my chances on getting fired.

ANyone interested in this topic, tune in to Fox Business (not Fox News) channel. John Stossel is doing a big expose on public employees abuse of these systems.
Six figure pension? No teacher will be collecting a 6 figure pension. Even someone making 130K a year making 60-65% of final salary doesn't equal 100K.

Again, it's not that there isn't a valid argument, it's the lies and hyperbole that make discussion of this subject difficult, and why we keep having threads locked because of it.


Public employee abuse of the pension system has been going on for decades. I would say it was much more prevalent 20-30 years ago, especially with cops and fire dept..every other guy was out on "disability" pension..running around coaching football teams, moving vending machines around with a back too bad to allow them to work...etc. Literally Every coach I had playing little league or pee wee football was a cop or FDNY out on diability. I remember my dad talking about it back then, that these guys were basically crooks. They'd trip over their shoelace and then claim that they couldn't work anymore. I know, that's hyperbole true, but the abuse has been around for a long time.

There were expose's in the past, undercover photos in Newsday, etc. Again, it's the way of the world around here in wanna-be mobster-land. You get braggin' rights with Vinny yucking it up over a beer how you fleeced the state.
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