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Old 01-09-2012, 10:22 AM
 
3,939 posts, read 8,942,995 times
Reputation: 1516

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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlonaG View Post
1) Certainly not everyone eats animals (we are NOT Carnivores). Funny, we have the ability to not only tear apart flesh, but digest it easily in our systems. We are omnivores, not carnivores.
2) Who says that we are at the top of the food chain? The Bible? Well here's new for you - not everyone believes in the Bible. What does the bible have to do with anything??? What is our natural predator? Mosquitos?? Leaf bags???? High taxes??????
3) We do NOT need meat to live nor do we live in a time where one HAS TO HUNT for food. We get a LOT of nutrients from meat. Yes, they can be replaced by plant matter but as I said in #1, we have the ability to eat animal for a reason.
4) Your last statement is utterly false. The reason it seems this way is because an animal has no choice in what becomes of them. I support many humanitarian charities (especially children and battered women) and will always fight for the underdog. My point is that there are many people (not saying you or Yzette) that will fight tooth and nail for animals, but think this gives them a free pass to give the finger to other humans.
4) I agree that this argument is ridiculous as there is simply no way ever to see eye to eye on this. Agree to disagree. Great thing about this country.
Bold inline.

 
Old 01-09-2012, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Inis Fada
16,966 posts, read 34,567,429 times
Reputation: 7722
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pequaman View Post
Do as I say, not as I do
C'mon...I know you want to live in a yurt on da riv
 
Old 01-09-2012, 01:11 PM
 
8,679 posts, read 15,223,226 times
Reputation: 15341
A lot of commentary on the thread. I don't have much time, so do forgive if this darts all over the place. BTW, I'm the one who said to

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pequaman View Post
For all intents and purposes, they are pretty much cured/eradicated, whatever you wanna call it. How many people do you know stricken with polio or measles??
Either way though, you and everyone else here is part of the problem. YOU are demanding all that furniture in your residence, running tap water, electricity, a house to live in, oil and gasoline, food trucked to your supermarket.. you are contributing to the destruction of Earth due to all your demands. Just look at all the stuff in your home. Look at all the natural resources we must destroy/invade to sustain your standard of living.
People do still get and die of those diseases, Peq. It's not common in the U.S., and polio is much more rare than measles, but the vast majority of the diseases Americans inoculate themselves against are alive and well in other parts of the world. What frightens me is something Kayfouroh pointed out: The anti-vax crowd. I would hate to see a resurgence of those disease because some parents are basing their decisions on a study that not only had no scientific merit and never should have been published in the first place, but has since been [URL="http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full"]recalled and declared a fraud[/URL]. As far as I'm concerned, Jenny McCarthy is guilty of fomenting a crime against humanity. Hey, I may be a bit of a misanthrope, but I don't want children to die because their parents believe a bubble-headed comedienne whom no one would ever have heard of if she hadn't shown the world her fake rack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kayfouroh View Post
Let's give man some huge solid antlers and see what happens.

This whole argument is ridiculous. Man is top of the food chain. It is simple nature to have higher stationed animals eating lower animals. Do we really not connect basic food to animals anymore? We do eat animals, you know.
Maybe you do. I don't. Humanity is not at the top. We share the top with other creatures. Big diff.

BTW, I'm the one who made the comment about chest-thumping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IlonaG View Post
1) Certainly not everyone eats animals (we are NOT Carnivores).
2) Who says that we are at the top of the food chain? The Bible? Well here's new for you - not everyone believes in the Bible.
3) We do NOT need meat to live nor do we live in a time where one HAS TO HUNT for food.
4) Your last statement is utterly false. The reason it seems this way is because an animal has no choice in what becomes of them. I support many humanitarian charities (especially children and battered women) and will always fight for the underdog.
4) I agree that this argument is ridiculous as there is simply no way ever to see eye to eye on this.
Technically, humans have the capacity to be omnivores. They also have the ability to peel paint chips off the all and eat those, too. That doesn't make it healthy.

However, you are right, it is not necessary to be omnivorous. I wouldn't even recommend it. In fact, I'd caution against it, particularly if the animals are factory-farmed. Ethics and cruelty aside, most meat in the U.S. is comes from very nasty places. Never mind the antibiotics and hormones people are ingesting, the animals are often sick anyway and they live in filthy conditions. I don't go around announcing my vegetarianism, but whenever I hear people say "chicken is good for you," I throw up a little in my mouth. Yeah, chicken is good for you if you are under the delusion that it is to your nutritional advantage to consume a bird that was shot up with heaven-knows-what and fed its own feces. Never mind that poultry giants like Perdue are responsible for some of the worst water pollution owing to runoff from their sites. If you're a hunter, you'd better hope your deer isn't drinking from a [URL="http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-07-21/features/bs-gr-perdue-waterkeeper-lawsuit-20100721_1_bacteria-and-nutrient-pollution-perdue-farms-industry-for-water-pollution"]source of water that was contaminated by Perdue[/URL] or its contractors.

Indeed, factory farming can be a valid argument FOR hunting, as far as I'm concerned. I realize that there will always be meat-eaters. That's just the reality of it. But if someone held a gun to my head and told me to eat meat or die, I'd request that the meat at least not come from a factory farm. The mere thought of it and what goes on there turns my stomach. I'd be far more forgiving if the option included meat taken from a cow that died instantly with one shot to the head. (And then I'd wrest the gun from the person threatening me and dig out my favorite recipe for fava beans--with a nice Chianti, of course.)

Plus, it would be funny to see some of these Whopper-eaters have to go outside and actually chase after and get their food. My guess is that if people had to hunt the meat they eat, there would be a LOT more vegetarians in the world.
 
Old 01-09-2012, 01:25 PM
 
3,939 posts, read 8,942,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzette View Post
Yeah, chicken is good for you if you are under the delusion that it is to your nutritional advantage to consume a bird that was shot up with heaven-knows-what and fed its own feces. Never mind that poultry giants like Perdue are responsible for some of the worst water pollution owing to runoff from their sites. If you're a hunter, you'd better hope your deer isn't drinking from a source of water that was contaminated by Perdue or its contractors.
You do realize that companies like Monsanto, ConAgra, and all the big GMO companies are doing just the same thing, but instead of pumping hormones into poultry they genetically modify your green wonderfoods that you consider cleaner than meat.
 
Old 01-09-2012, 01:44 PM
 
8,679 posts, read 15,223,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kayfouroh View Post
You do realize that companies like Monsanto, ConAgra, and all the big GMO companies are doing just the same thing, but instead of pumping hormones into poultry they genetically modify your green wonderfoods that you consider cleaner than meat.
Yes, I do realize those companies do bad things.

It is presumptuous and actually more than a bit illogical of you to assume I'm a big fan of their products, though. Put it to you this way: If I'm aware of what goes into meat, wouldn't it stand to reason that I'm aware of what agribusiness does? They're big polluters.

I strive to buy organic whenever and wherever possible, locally grown if I can get my hands on it.

As for genetic modification, I file that argument in the circular file along with Peq's "cured" diseases as indicative of being unfamiliar with the science. If you've ever eaten an apple, you've eaten something that has been genetically modified. Cross-pollinating different trees to breed hybrids is genetic modification. The poultry you eat? Genetically modified. Same goes for all of your meat. The creatures are all bred to each other to produce certain traits--just like purebred dogs. Whether the genetic modification is done via mating or test tube is irrelevant. Manipulation is manipulation.
 
Old 01-09-2012, 01:44 PM
 
2,630 posts, read 4,976,265 times
Reputation: 1776
Who are we kidding? People are the biggest pest animal on the planet. Take a walk in the wild without a gun, you'll find out who our natural predators are. Have fun with that. Humans are arrogant and annoying brats.

Top of the food chain through superior firepower.
 
Old 01-09-2012, 01:50 PM
 
3,939 posts, read 8,942,995 times
Reputation: 1516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzette View Post
Whether the genetic modification is done via mating or test tube is irrelevant. Manipulation is manipulation.
The same logic can be applied to injecting animals with antibiotics. Either they gain a genetic advantage over certain strains of bacteria or viruses via human injection or massive dying and breeding of genetic traits.. survival of the fittest.

And yes, I do know that genetic modification is natural, but my point is that if you claim it's bad to inject a chicken with antibiotics, why is it okay if GMO companies do the same thing with strains of corn, wheat, etc.? Organic doesn't necessarily mean clean, just like how "free-range" doesn't mean the cows and chickens are happily walking in a field for their lives.

You're screwed either way unless you grow your own food.
 
Old 01-09-2012, 02:11 PM
 
8,679 posts, read 15,223,226 times
Reputation: 15341
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayfouroh View Post
The same logic can be applied to injecting animals with antibiotics. Either they gain a genetic advantage over certain strains of bacteria or viruses via human injection or massive dying and breeding of genetic traits.. survival of the fittest.

And yes, I do know that genetic modification is natural, but my point is that if you claim it's bad to inject a chicken with antibiotics, why is it okay if GMO companies do the same thing with strains of corn, wheat, etc.? Organic doesn't necessarily mean clean, just like how "free-range" doesn't mean the cows and chickens are happily walking in a field for their lives.

You're screwed either way unless you grow your own food.

I didn't say it's okay for all of that. Stop putting words in my mouth. Genetically modified plants can wreak havoc on indigenous ones and their habitat.

Also, antibiotics do not alter your DNA. If that were the case, shooting previous generations up with penicillin would mean no one got the clap anymore.

Antibiotics do not confer a genetic advantage to any creature but the pathogens they are supposed to kill. [URL="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0004520/"]MRSA[/URL] is the perfect example of that. That is why "anti-bacterial" soaps are a load of hooey. All soap has anti-bacterial properties. The super-strength liquid soaps marketed as "anti-bacterial" actually promote the appearance of resistant bacteria. Killing 99% of "germs" means that the 1% that resisted the soap takes over and reproduces unimpeded. Great: Now you have a whole bunch of bacteria that the soap can't kill, where before their numbers would have been kept low through competition for resources with the other bacteria. Not that you shouldn't wash your hands, but that society has gone a little too far with germophobia.

What's more, there are two reasons animals in factory farms require so many antibiotics to survive. First is the unhygienic conditions in which they live--conditions created by humans. If you lived with open wounds in a 16 sq. ft. outhouse with six other people, you'd need antibiotics, too. Fecal matter is a haven for staph. If you got no exercise and had to stand there in that outhouse your whole life, you'd succumb to disease sooner rather than later. Second is that the breeding that makes the animals all tender and fleshy, breeding controlled by humans, is the same breeding that destroys their natural immunity. Just like people, the soft tend to be the most sickly.

So, humans created the problem, and humans treat the problem they created by creating another problem: anti-biotic resistant bacteria through overuse of anti-biotics in animals bred for consumption. Perfect case of what Ilona tried to explain.

Anyway, this is way OT.

Last edited by Yzette; 01-09-2012 at 02:19 PM..
 
Old 01-09-2012, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Nassau/Queens border
1,483 posts, read 3,150,728 times
Reputation: 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpsma View Post
Maybe you don't feel you are on the top of the food chain? Do you have a species inferiority complex?
This statement proves how very little you really know about a 'Food Chain'. Where is your science degree, by the way? Food Chains or Food Webs are more complex than you seem to think. And no - we are NOT at the 'top'. In reality food chains begin with the Sun, followed by plants, then Herbivores, Carnivores, Omnivores (humans), Decomposers (fungi, bacteria, etc.). It never ceases to amaze me how you all think you know so much when you actually know so little.

Some good links:
Food Chains and Food Webs
Food Chain: EnchantedLearning.com
Interesting Facts about Food Chains (http://ejad.best.vwh.net/java/population/facts_foodchain.html - broken link)

No matter how you cut it, scientifically speaking humans are NEVER AT THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN.
 
Old 01-09-2012, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Nassau/Queens border
1,483 posts, read 3,150,728 times
Reputation: 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhBeeHave View Post
Is that the 'Royal We'? While I can't speak for you, I am an omnivore.

Leave religion out of it, omitting Wicca and Druidism, too, as the food chain is not religion-based. I don't know why you dragged that into the discussion, other than to obfuscate things.

In this food chain, people are up in the top tier. All predators use skill and cunning -- in the case of humans, we have devised traps and weapons as we lack speed, keen senses and claws.

Hunting Deer to Put Food on the Table | WHIZ News

The people in Haiti are certainly underdogs given the devastation to their country caused by the earthquake. But they're not cute, fuzzy woodland creatures. Save Bambi, starve a Haitian.
Because we are NOT (I repeat NOT) at the top of the 'Food Chain'. This is the part that you do not seem to get. Humans are very arrogant and for some unkown reason think they have 'Dominion' over every other life form. Not true.
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