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First, hats off to Samantha Garvey from Brentwood.
The LI total is really impressive! Even Westchester has only 14.
Texas actually has 14, which is still low considering their population.
Connecticut has 7, Illinois has 9, Massachusetts has 10, Michigan has 7 and NJ has 9. Wisconsin has only 1!
One single school in NYC, Stuyvesant HS, has 13, more than each of these states and almost as many as TX! Bronx Science has 8.
Garvey, Samantha Natalie, 17 The Effects of the Physical Environment and Predators on Phenotypic Plasticity in Geukensia demissa
Very interesting topic as well--and somewhat symbolic when you consider her life story. I'd be interested to see what her findings are and if other immobile organisms, like plants, exhibit the same defense mechanism to predators. All you vegans out there should realize that those immobile, leafy foods you eat, also realize they are being preyed upon...Plants want to live, just like every other living thing out there.
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Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean
Great post, very interesting... and kind of a bummer, LOL - though to be completely honest, I've always suspected there was some kinda system like this running behind the scenes.
And like you said, it's still a great accomplishment regardless... even if we take away the 28 SBU-assisted students that still leaves LI with a very impressive number of 33!
It makes me very happy to see names on this list from lots of regular, middle-class high schools. Mepham, Sachem, Comsewogue, Kings Park, Plainedge... two from my alma mater (MacArthur, in Levittown). The girl from Brentwood is a truly heart-warming, inspirational story. I guess this is kinda mean, but it also makes me happy to see only one name from the world of (IMO) waste-of-money LI private schools
Congrats to all the winners! I know it's not quite on the level of a National cheerleading victory ala Rocky Point, but I'm sure they will all go very far in life.
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Originally Posted by 2011littlehouse
I guess, I will be a bit cynical and apologize for that.
But let me say that my comments do not diminish the accomplishments of the people on the list. A prerequisite to be on this list is that the kids are bright and inquisitive.
Let's just say that I have had students (kids who have done the project in my lab) on this list in the past, don't have one this year.
LI has about 20% of the semi-finalists nationwide (61/300); Stony Brook University has supervised the projects for 28 out of these 61 kids, i.e. SBU has produced about 10% of the semifinalists nationwide. These impressive numbers are similar to the ones for the last 5-10 years. Ward Melville is among the top 5 high schools nation-wide that has been producing the most Intel and Siemens semi-finalists & finalists.
What conclusions can one draw from this?
Here comes the bit of cynicism.
No question that these are very bright, inquisitive kids. But in my experience, in >95% of the cases, the win is because there is a lab/research group working for the kid (not the other way around).
Behind the success story and the % above there is a well-oiled operation on LI, and at SBU. Heck, because of the % above, we at SBU get kids from Texas (go figure!) to do their projects here in the summer... At the LI high schools, there are good / well-oriented science teachers that make an effort to secure a spot at the university for their best students and to coach them during the elaborate process of writing all essays and doing all paperwork for these competitions (and there is tons of it). At the university, there are teams of willing altruistic faculty, postdoctoral fellows and graduate students that work to accommodate the students. There is a research group on campus that actually runs this as a business operation - parents pay for the students to participate, in return that group has successful strategies to produce unusually high numbers of these winners (you need to know the system).
Almost all of these kids need major training from the basics - lots of resources spent to bring them to success; they spent a summer (3 mo) in a lab and many continue contact for about a year to complete a project. Scientific discoveries today are made by teams of skilled researchers, and for the most part (sans some serendipitous break-throughs), science is a very slow and often painful process with ups and downs (virtually never a 3-12mo stint even when brilliance is in place).
The paperwork for these competitions attempts to extract the essence about the student and their work - they probe in multiple ways about the level of independence and ask about how the idea of the project originated and what has the student contributed... Regardless what we write in those papers, in my experience, in >95% of the cases, no matter how bright the kid, the ideas and all critical components come from the university teams. The best kids may participate in brainstorming and provide insight, but they just lack the background and/or time to be major players in these projects (not to mention leaders). Yet, in the media you will see "high school student XY designed a new cancer vaccine" and such.
Over the years, I have had 1 truly outstanding kid in these competitions - he was such an exceptionally quick learner, that we used him for at least 1-2 years after that. But the rest have been just good, nothing out of the ordinary.
Don't have statistics, but I think, only a negligible % of these kids actually go on to become scientists. A huge number go to big-name schools, and a large % become very successful people, they just don't follow the more solitary path of science, which is fine.
I personally look for a spark in the student and genuine interest / passion for the project (not the competition). That's rare. Or maybe I am too idealistic. I definitely avoid taking the students, where is clear that the parents are more eager (and aggressive) than the kid. I also look for students, for whom this may be truly a life-changing experience. The Brentwood girl, regardless how she ended up in the completion, is an inspiration for many. I want more like her to be given a chance.
Great post by littlehouse2011.. Reps to you. I was not aware it was that many students that got an edge from this. I always thought this advantage was limited mostly to Ward Melville and a few other districts near SBU. I remember doing a similar national project in Bio, and the only resources we had were the library, our parents and a few teachers to help us out. Still impressive though..and extra kudos to the middle-class schools.
I'm curious, what labs do most students from Nassau utilize for these projects?
Garvey, Samantha Natalie, 17 The Effects of the Physical Environment and Predators on Phenotypic Plasticity in Geukensia demissa
Very interesting topic as well--and somewhat symbolic when you consider her life story. I'd be interested to see what her findings are and if other immobile organisms, like plants, exhibit the same defense mechanism to predators. All you vegans out there should realize that those immobile, leafy foods you eat, also realize they are being preyed upon...Plants want to live, just like every other living thing out there.
Suddenly, I hear the old Squeeze tune, Pulling Mussells from a Shell playing in my mind.
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Great post by littlehouse2011.. Reps to you. I was not aware it was that many students that got an edge from this. I always thought this advantage was limited mostly to Ward Melville and a few other districts near SBU. I remember doing a similar national project in Bio, and the only resources we had were the library, our parents and a few teachers to help us out. Still impressive though..and extra kudos to the middle-class schools.
I'm curious, what labs do most students from Nassau utilize for these projects?
I've had friends in Remsenburg and Huntington who would drive their children to SBU for the sole purpose of working on their Intel projects. An older friend, who ran the Westinghouse(Intel) program in one of the more respected NYC High Schools, had students over the years who also were mentored by SBU staff.
Not all Intel projects require SBU labs (or other university labs) for that matter. I believe that ease of access to labs (in projects which require such) has allowed schools with advantages i.e. WMHS proximity, wealthy families in other districts being able to shuttle students to SBU; has allowed those districts to dominate where more distant, working class communities like Plainedge and Levittown can not.
What I have noticed from the current and a recent semi-finalist from Plainedge is that their projects did not require science labs. IMHO as more students come to this realization, we might be seeing more semi-finalists from unexpected districts.
Despite having Red Devil Pride and living in a house full of WM Patriots, I am cheering on Samantha Garvey. The girl is an inspiration to many.
I'm curious, what labs do most students from Nassau utilize for these projects?
SBU gets students from the whole island (including Nassau) plus NYC, and as I mentioned - from other states. In fact, I was a bit incorrect to say 28/61 since about 5-6 of the 28 were out of state. Very popular is for California! and Texas! kids to do their projects at SBU - yes, puzzling... We also get MA, CT and other students.
From Nassau, we get a HUGE number of Great Neck students, also Jericho, Plainview; students from the Bronx and some Manhattan schools.
We traditionally get also Brentwood and Central Islip students - Samantha (who did her project at SBU, Marine Sciences) is not an exception - last year and before that, there were Brentwood semifinalists too.
Many NYC students come through connections with the big group that I mentioned before, which recently has been hosting no less than 40-50 students per summer! And they regularly have several semi-finalists on that list.
Other research labs typically take 1-2 students, otherwise is unmanageable.
As mentioned, proximity and means of transportation are essential, because many of these students do not have driving license yet.
In that regard, the closest Suffolk schools have an edge.
I have been amazed at the sacrifice / borderline slaving that some parents are willing to do (I personally would not have done this for my kids). We have had moms be on call as chauffeurs late at night, or sitting in the parking lot waiting for an experiment to be done...
Not sure how is transportation handled for Brentwood, CI etc.
Schools closer to NYC also utilize Mount Sinai School of Medicine (some groups are friendly / open to HS kids), Columbia (some labs), NYU (some)... But as a whole, perhaps SBU is the friendliest / most open to HS students in the greater NYC area, if not nation-wide even.
My sentiments about the critical role of a university research team in the winning of these competitions is not only an SBU thing, it applies in general, I think.
Proud graduate of Brentwood schools -- are you cogniscent of the fact that German or Irish is not a race, but a national origin?
I think they can be considered an ethnic or cultural identity.
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