What is the most unpretentious upper middle class town on LI? (Huntington: live in, price)

[MikeyKid]

Originally Posted by OhBeeHave

Belle Terre, Poquot, and Head of the Hatbor are all incorporated villages and not small developments. HoH talks in both the Town of Brookhaven and Smithtown, both Smithtown and 3V schools, both 11780 & 11790 zip codes.

Old Field is an incorporated village as well.

Pulling Old Field and Poquot out of the 3V will still leave you with a lot of upper middle class homeowners both north and south of 25A. If anything, there are a few pockets /small developments with middle class residents.

Thanks Walter

I jumped into this thread for the simple reason that Crooks puts too many towns on a pedestal - in this case specifically, Miller Place. MP is not upper middle class - not even close by my definition.

The areas you mention here (based on Crooks pulling them in) are small - period. Poquott and Old Field according to citydata has a pop. of about 900 each. That's a small development in the big picture and very well are "upper" - but contrast that to MP where it's > 12k population. I know you're partial to 3V for obvious reasons, but it's not upper middle class overall (it has pockets that are upper)... Another example is him throwing out Great River (which I know you know I know very well) as "old money"... Seriously?

It really comes down to what our personal definition of "upper" is... and in many ways it comes down to what others are saying about "income vs. wealth". Income and wealth are 2 very different things.

Originally Posted by Crookhaven

Hes been away a while.
He has very little concept of how wealthy some of these enclaves are.

I agree 3V is mostly Upper Middle as is Mt Sinai, Miller Place and SWR.

I'm not even sure what were talking about anymore lol.
; )

Crooks

As I said to OBH, it comes down to what we define as "wealth" and what we define as "upper". I don't agree with your assertion on these towns - which ultimately is subjective. However, you need to acknowledge the fundamentals of statistics... when talking "median HHI" (a stat you seem to like), that means there are exactly as many people making UNDER it as there are making OVER it. So we could play this game until the cows come home because just about every town has a pocket of "wealth"... which I won't argue. But whether that makes it "upper" overall is open to debate. Suffolk county makes the Richy Rich top lists it does due to the super high end RE, not because of MP.

Upper middle class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[ocngypz]

Originally Posted by MikeyKid

Thanks Walter

I jumped into this thread for the simple reason that Crooks puts too many towns on a pedestal - in this case specifically, Miller Place. MP is not upper middle class - not even close by my definition.

The areas you mention here (based on Crooks pulling them in) are small - period. Poquott and Old Field according to citydata has a pop. of about 900 each. That's a small development in the big picture and very well are "upper" - but contrast that to MP where it's > 12k population. I know you're partial to 3V for obvious reasons, but it's not upper middle class overall (it has pockets that are upper)... Another example is him throwing out Great River (which I know you know I know very well) as "old money"... Seriously?

It really comes down to what our personal definition of "upper" is... and in many ways it comes down to what others are saying about "income vs. wealth". Income and wealth are 2 very different things.



As I said to OBH, it comes down to what we define as "wealth" and what we define as "upper". I don't agree with your assertion on these towns - which ultimately is subjective. However, you need to acknowledge the fundamentals of statistics... when talking "median HHI" (a stat you seem to like), that means there are exactly as many people making UNDER it as there are making OVER it. So we could play this game until the cows come home because just about every town has a pocket of "wealth"... which I won't argue. But whether that makes it "upper" overall is open to debate. Suffolk county makes the Richy Rich top lists it does due to the super high end RE, not because of MP.

Upper middle class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which is exactly why Per Capita income figures are used to determine the relative wealth of communities, counties, states, countries.

If every HH had the same amount of household members, wage earners (either active or passive) then it wouldn't be necessary to use Per Capita. HH income includes everyone residing in the HH whether related or not.

Single man makes $120,000 versus Family of 4: Father makes $55,000, Mother makes 30,000, boomerang kid makes $27,000 and Grandma $8000 from her social security checks versus 3 roommates each making $40,000.

HH income is the same, but Per Capita is not if each were a separate community: $120,000; $30,000;$40,000 respectively.

[h-tonian]

Originally Posted by Crookhaven

Id be interested as well.
When I looked at MP and MS it was about the same per C-D.

What I'm still unclear on is how the cost of ones housing becomes an asset and not a liability?
I hope if we learned anything form the Bush years is that our homes are not ATM machines.

For people who purchased before the bubble (many many many people), their homes are still healthy assets. Most areas on the western North Shore of LI are still a great investments. Realistically, you can't say if a house is an asset or a liability without going through each individual families accounting though. I'm not familiar with MP at all beyond the stats and what I've read on these boards, but my understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that the "upper-middle" population that is being discussed mainly lives in bubble-era McMansions - exactly the type of homes that are more likely to be liabilities than assets. Likewise, I'm afraid some of my neighbors, who purchased simple ranch houses at a premium during the Bush years and knocked them down to build ostentatious 6-bedroom colonials, might be in the same boat.

Im also a little confused how MS and MP would be downscale in comparison to Sea Cliff when it has a higher HHI. I was of the impression that HHI was the more accurate indicator in terms of demographics and not Per Capita?

Unfortunately, the census does not have an easily accessible fact sheet for Sea Cliff either, so I'm also going off CD's numbers. Again, everything is relative. Sea Cliff definitely has upper-middle residents, but overall, on the North Shore in the Town of Oyster Bay, I tend to think of it mainly as a solid middle-class community (thus the lack of supposed pretension?) along with areas like Roslyn, Bayville, Syosset, parts of Glen Cove, etc. - surrounded by solidly upper-middle class areas like Centre Island, Roslyn Harbor, Lattingtown, Woodbury, etc. and wealthy areas like Cove Neck, Brookville, Muttontown, Laurel Hollow, etc. I also think of Sea Cliff as a great place for "starter" homes for young professional couples. Several of my friends and colleagues lived there in their 20s/30s and moved on (or stayed) as their careers advanced.

I'm just simple country folk but I'm fairly certain that if we mapped out the concentration of dual income vs single income familes it would be lean heavily to the west by virtue of taxes/commuting/child care costs and necessity.

While I think this is probably true in middle-class communities, in the western solidly upper-middle communities mentioned above you will see many if not most families that are single income, with mom not working and devoting her time to homemaking, golf, and taking the kids to soccer.

I still stand by my statements that both Miller Place and Mount Sinai are great choices for Upper Middle and Unpretentious.

Definition of PRETENTIOUS

pre·ten·tious adj \pri-ˈten(t)-shəs\
1
: characterized by pretension: as
a : making usually unjustified or excessive claims (as of value or standing) <the pretentious fraud who assumes a love of culture that is alien to him — Richard Watts>
b : expressive of affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature <pretentious language> <pretentious houses>

Yes, you can buy into a McMansion in Miller Place, maybe a Range Rover, maybe your Gucci sunglasses wearing wife can stay home with the kids, but the fact is that same income is not going to buy you that lifestyle in a place like Huntington or Syosset, where it is very middle-of-the road. You will be completely priced out of true upper-middle communities like CSH or Woodbury.

The Huntington area has just shown how Unpretentious it is by its broad and condemning swipe on Central Suffolk.

I do not speak on behalf of the entire Huntington area. I am one resident, who posted census statistics that suggest that solid middle-class areas in western Suffolk and Nassau are on par (and often trump) what is considered to be upper-middle class in Central Suffolk. Cold quantitative data. Census statistics are not pretentious or unpretentious.

Going back to the the true definition of PRETENTIOUS, all the communities I mentioned are unpretentious, as most of the people living in them can afford upper-middle class lifestyles and the wealth of local culture found there (plus easy access to one of the world's greatest cities) in spite of the high cost of living. True pretension is attaching an air of "affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature " to areas that are average to below average on Long Island. I'm not saying these areas aren't great and have their benefits, but it is pretentious to call many of them "upper-middle class." It is textbook definition to claim RP is on-par with middle-class Bohemia, when in reality it is below average in Suffolk and closer in socioeconomic status to Huntington Station.

[ydsavaged]

Originally Posted by Crookhaven

Astonishing....even with those woefully low Per Capita numbers?

Are you sure theyre not from Huntington Station?
From what I hear the area is enchantingly upscale....Id visit but I cant afford to and my verbal skills are poor.

Crooks

Yep...But to be fair just because they drive a nice car doesn't mean they can afford it! lol.

Huntington Station is far too classy for me as well.

[LIMA]

Originally Posted by ocngypz

Sea Cliff, I think.

NO MORE DAVIS PEACH FARM???

Guess it had to happen sooner or later.

Dam.

Gotta be 10 years, see many people living here have no clue of there surroundings

[LIMA]

All these towns have there share of garbage... You just refuse to see it

[h-tonian]

Originally Posted by Crookhaven

Wheres Walter?

They most likely lumped LH in with Huntington or one of the surrounds which would skew the numbers greatly.

I assume the same would happen with Belle Terre in Port Jefferson.

Crooks

No, Lloyd Harbor is a separate CDP from Huntington, so its numbers are not "lumped in" and skewing Huntington CDP's numbers. The reason (I just discovered) is that the census does not publish QuickFacts sheets for CDPs with populations less than 5,000. This is also why Sea Cliff doesn't have a QuickFacts sheet. I can check the actual 2010 datasets for LH and SC when I return to work next week.

According to CD, LH's estimated median household income in 2009: $219,281; Estimated per capita income in 2009: $95,493.

Likewise, Belle Terre is not "lumped in" with Port Jeff.

From CD: Estimated median household income in 2009: $155,392; Estimated per capita income in 2009: $75,654.

Stats for the less populated CDPs can be found here: http://quickfacts.census.gov/cgi-bin/qfd/demolink?36 (although income is not included)

[Racing is a thrill]

Originally Posted by LIMA

Gotta be 10 years, see many people living here have no clue of there surroundings

Nope they see a nice house they buy it without taking a tour of the area go figure.

[Pequaman]

eesh , poor little RP got H-Bombed. Hunt Sta lol.

Anyway, I just thought I'd add LH and CSH's data from factfinder2 because I saw they were mentioned as missing.

Cold Spring Harbor
Median Household Income - $134,821
Per capita income (dollars) - $63,436
Median Household Value (dollars) 827,100

Lloyd Harbor
Median Household Income - $186,500
Per capita income (dollars) - $104,813
Median Household Value (dollars) $1,000,000+

I'd say CSH is solidly upper-middle with wealthy. LH is wealthy.

I don't know how RP and Bohemia made it into the thread. But on the other areas mentioned, here is a good map showing census tracts with high percentage of $200k+ households. Combine that with well-above-average median home prices and I think that would qualify as upper-middle class areas on a national level, and in many towns on a LI level.

Go here> Mapping America ? Census Bureau 2005-9 American Community Survey - NYTimes.com > Select "View More Maps" > Then on the left menu select "Income Maps" > "Households earning over $200k" last selection on the right. Any tract shaded the darkest green could be considered upper-middle, IMO.

The two tracts covering Rocky Point are at 2% and 6%--about the same as Huntington Station actually. Bohemia is a little higher at 9%.
MP (22%) & especially Mt Sinai (31% & 8%) would likely qualify as upper-middle, or at least having pockets of upper-middle class residents. (Mostly referring to the tract closer to the water in Mt Sinai at 31%, not the part of Mt Sinai falling in the 8% tract). I usually don't agree with Crooks, but he might be partially-correct on MP/MS judging by the census. Reality is they are most likely solid middle class with pockets of upper-middle.

add:

[Crookhaven]

Originally Posted by Pequaman

eesh , poor little RP got H-Bombed. Hunt Sta lol.

Anyway, I just thought I'd add LH and CSH's data from factfinder2 because I saw they were mentioned as missing.

Cold Spring Harbor
Median Household Income - $134,821
Per capita income (dollars) - $63,436
Median Household Value (dollars) 827,100

Lloyd Harbor
Median Household Income - $186,500
Per capita income (dollars) - $104,813
Median Household Value (dollars) $1,000,000+

I'd say CSH is solidly upper-middle with wealthy. LH is wealthy.

I don't know how RP and Bohemia made it into the thread. But on the other areas mentioned, here is a good map showing census tracts with high percentage of $200k+ households. Combine that with well-above-average median home prices and I think that would qualify as upper-middle class areas on a national level, and in many towns on a LI level.

Go here> Mapping America ? Census Bureau 2005-9 American Community Survey - NYTimes.com > Select "View More Maps" > Then on the left menu select "Income Maps" > "Households earning over $200k" last selection on the right. Any tract shaded the darkest green could be considered upper-middle, IMO.

The two tracts covering Rocky Point are at 2% and 6%--about the same as Huntington Station actually. Bohemia is a little higher at 9%.
MP (22%) & especially Mt Sinai (31% & 8%) would likely qualify as upper-middle, or at least having pockets of upper-middle class residents. (Mostly referring to the tract closer to the water in Mt Sinai at 31%, not the part of Mt Sinai falling in the 8% tract). I usually don't agree with Crooks, but he might be partially-correct on MP/MS judging by the census. Reality is they are most likely solid middle class with pockets of upper-middle.

add:

Hi Peqs

Happy 4th.
I dont have a dog in this fight(per the treaty) but that map looks about right to me.

I just know what I see in the area. I assure you MS/MP are fairly affluent areas that IMO are (for the most part) unpretentious.
SWR is known to have some baggery.

Crooks

PS I'm not sure how RP or Bohemia got here either.