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Old 11-21-2012, 07:16 AM
 
2,630 posts, read 4,057,434 times
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Just venting after today's LIPA article about MORE patronage (LIPA, this time) and fat public salaries and pensions.

How do you get out of this catch 22....half the jobs are public patronage BS overpaid politically connected appointee crap....BUT if you break public unions and let all those people go there is no private industry looking to fill the void and create jobs here to pick up the slack because taxes and cost of living are so high and govt is too dysfunctional and development unfriendly. Thus we NEED to maintain the BS public trough to keep the standard of living and home prices (maybe) artificially stable. Eventually everyone will have to work for the govt in some way and then it's just a big ponzi scheme of people paying taxes to pay their own salaries with no new revenues. Not sure hurricane Sandy was big enough to etch a sketch LI's economic problems back to a fixable place.

"We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures."
Thorton Wilder
Have a happy and healthy Thanksgiving.

Last edited by mongoose65; 11-21-2012 at 08:06 AM..
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:55 AM
 
9,900 posts, read 12,970,298 times
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I don't think half the jobs are public sector.

The truth is that the majority people on LI don't work for a public entity, so the net gain of seriously lowering compensation for those in the public sector, starting with those who are the most over compensated, would be substantial. More boats would rise than sink. The cost of living would shrink substantially. Even more importantly, maybe the hundreds of buildings that are sitting empty in commercial and industrial spaces will have tenants, so you'd have a broadened tax base. It's not just individuals paying massive property taxes, business pays even more.

The problem is that the public sector has the ear of the local politicians. Other than a few screaming seniors who don't have much else to do, how many people get involved in local politics?

When you have a gravy train job at stake, you bet you're going to vote.

Last edited by dman72; 11-21-2012 at 08:36 AM..
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:56 AM
 
1,083 posts, read 2,288,196 times
Reputation: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongoose65 View Post
Just venting after today's LIPA article about MORE patronage (LIPA, this time) and fat public salaries and pensions.

How do you get out of this catch 22....half the jobs are public patronage BS overpaid politically connected appointee crap....BUT if you break public unions and let all those people go there is no private industry looking to fill the void and create jobs here to pick up the slack because taxes and cost of living are so high and govt is too dysfunctional and development unfriendly. Thus we NEED to maintain the BS public trough to keep the standard of living and home prices (maybe) artificially stable. Eventually everyone will have to work for the govt in some way and then it's just a big ponzi scheme of people paying taxes to pay their own salaries with no new revenues. Not sure hurricane Sandy was big enough to etch a sketch LI's economic probelms back to a fixable place.

"We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures."
Thorton Wilder
Have a happy and healthy Thanksgiving.
Absolutely.... Growing up on LI, the local economy was never a really prosperous one. Private employers figured there should be a rebate back to them since you didn't need the 90 minute commute to the city.

In the 80's there was a DOD contractor boom creating much opportunity for EEs, MEs, and CEs. In the early 90's, after Reagan and with a new recession on hand, the DOD bubble popped, Grumman, Eaton AIL, Hazeltine and others laid off 000's of well paid engineers, many of whom found jobs in other parts of the country. Soon, hundreds of homes were for sale and the real estate market fell into a free-fall, with realtors exclaiming "just make an offer!". Fast forward to the late '90s and the internet boom actually increased the amount of business be conducted on LI. Many local entrepreneurs were consuming services, hiring local talent, and making money. I had never seen salaries and rates climb as high on LI as when this boom occurred. Then the .com explosion came and soon there was the real estate boom. Fast forward to '07, and the housing boom popped, lay-offs ensued and although we were thrust into a deep recession, our housing market stayed remarkably resilient (ok, what are we down from the peak prices today? 20%?).

My point with this quick summary of LI's economy is that while the rest of us were busy with better economic conditions, over the last 25 or so years, the politicians were busy too. They were giving the farm away to labor in exchange for votes. Today, on LI, we're left with a train-wreck of an economy, with our friends in public positions (and teachers, etc.) looking at retiring at a healthy age, with 2/3s salary, full medical and dental. These bennies are built on our backs, causing us to delay our own retirements since property taxes have risen to among the highest in the country.

I wish it was just property taxes, but we pay more for everything, including power, where LIPA charges 5x the national average. We have no farms left on LI, so most food and produce is trucked in at huge expense (esp. with tolls being treated as a revenue enhancer). And on top of this, Wall St., traditionally an economic achor, has all but left NYC behind with a leaner, less prosperous workforce.

Let's face it, LI is an economic train wreck. Between the politicians and labor, neither of whom have any problem looting the coffers, a crumbling infrastructure and ever higher taxes, fees and surcharges, all signs point to getting out before it's too late.

Happy Thanksgiving!
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:15 AM
 
2,630 posts, read 4,057,434 times
Reputation: 1754
Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
I don't think half the jobs are pubic sector.

The truth is that the majority people on LI don't work for a public entity, so the net gain of seriously lowering compensation for those in the public sector, starting with those who are the most over compensated, would be substantial. More boats would rise than sink. The cost of living would shrink substantially. Even more importantly, maybe the hundreds of buildings that are sitting empty in commercial and industrial spaces will have tenants, so you'd have a broadened tax base. It's not just individuals paying massive property taxes, business pays even more.

The problem is that the public sector has the ear of the local politicians. Other than a few screaming seniors who don't have much else to do, how many people get involved in local politics?

When you have a gravy train job at stake, you bet you're going to vote.
Dman, I get what you are saying but in this climate NO private industry is going to come in at those salary levels. Not just cops, teachers, etc but every special district, LIPA, etc ad nauseum with multiple employees pulling $100K plus and the resulting pension (even bigger hit). Maybe manufacturing comes in...solderers, pill bottle fillers, etc is what we might get on a good day and those jobs WILL NOT pay 6 figures or result in business expansion that will fill those vacant storefronts or impact the tax base. God only knows what types of tax incentives we will have to offer just to get a business to open here. Basically give them the store for 10 years for the promise a handful of $40k jobs and the votes that come from "creating jobs for LI!"

I also looked at that migration chart that was posted again today. Migration continues to explode OFF the island. Even Buffalo is picking up LI escapees. I'm truly worried. I don't see the impetus to fix anything. LI just blindly forges ahead towards the icebergs. I don't get it. It's sad. I wish I knew how to change the hearts and minds around here but every election I just SMFH at the same incumbents promising nothing, winning and delivering on their promise.

Ah, what's the use. Blah. Glad I'm off tomorrow.

Last edited by mongoose65; 11-21-2012 at 08:24 AM..
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:21 AM
 
2,630 posts, read 4,057,434 times
Reputation: 1754
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbathedog View Post
Absolutely.... Growing up on LI, the local economy was never a really prosperous one. Private employers figured there should be a rebate back to them since you didn't need the 90 minute commute to the city.

In the 80's there was a DOD contractor boom creating much opportunity for EEs, MEs, and CEs. In the early 90's, after Reagan and with a new recession on hand, the DOD bubble popped, Grumman, Eaton AIL, Hazeltine and others laid off 000's of well paid engineers, many of whom found jobs in other parts of the country. Soon, hundreds of homes were for sale and the real estate market fell into a free-fall, with realtors exclaiming "just make an offer!". Fast forward to the late '90s and the internet boom actually increased the amount of business be conducted on LI. Many local entrepreneurs were consuming services, hiring local talent, and making money. I had never seen salaries and rates climb as high on LI as when this boom occurred. Then the .com explosion came and soon there was the real estate boom. Fast forward to '07, and the housing boom popped, lay-offs ensued and although we were thrust into a deep recession, our housing market stayed remarkably resilient (ok, what are we down from the peak prices today? 20%?).

My point with this quick summary of LI's economy is that while the rest of us were busy with better economic conditions, over the last 25 or so years, the politicians were busy too. They were giving the farm away to labor in exchange for votes. Today, on LI, we're left with a train-wreck of an economy, with our friends in public positions (and teachers, etc.) looking at retiring at a healthy age, with 2/3s salary, full medical and dental. These bennies are built on our backs, causing us to delay our own retirements since property taxes have risen to among the highest in the country.

I wish it was just property taxes, but we pay more for everything, including power, where LIPA charges 5x the national average. We have no farms left on LI, so most food and produce is trucked in at huge expense (esp. with tolls being treated as a revenue enhancer). And on top of this, Wall St., traditionally an economic achor, has all but left NYC behind with a leaner, less prosperous workforce.

Let's face it, LI is an economic train wreck. Between the politicians and labor, neither of whom have any problem looting the coffers, a crumbling infrastructure and ever higher taxes, fees and surcharges, all signs point to getting out before it's too late.

Happy Thanksgiving!
Tried to rep for this but denied. Appreciate the historical perspective.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:42 AM
 
9,900 posts, read 12,970,298 times
Reputation: 5462
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongoose65 View Post
Dman, I get what you are saying but in this climate NO private industry is going to come in at those salary levels. Not just cops, teachers, etc but every special district, LIPA, etc ad nauseum with multiple employees pulling $100K plus and the resulting pension (even bigger hit). Maybe manufacturing comes in...solderers, pill bottle fillers, etc is what we might get on a good day and those jobs WILL NOT pay 6 figures or result in business expansion that will fill those vacant storefronts or impact the tax base. God only knows what types of tax incentives we will have to offer just to get a business to open here. Basically give them the store for 10 years for the promise a handful of $40k jobs and the votes that come from "creating jobs for LI!"

I also looked at that migration chart that was posted again today. Migration continues to explode OFF the island. Even Buffalo is picking up LI escapees. I'm truly worried. I don't see the impetus to fix anything. LI just blindly forges ahead towards the icebergs. I don't get it. It's sad. I wish I knew how to change the hearts and minds around here but every election I just SMFH at the same incumbents promising nothing, winning and delivering on their promise.

Ah, what's the use. Blah. Glad I'm off tomorrow.
Pretty funny typo by me there, whoops.

The person not on the gravy train is too busy working their tail off to get involved in the politics of it. Meanwhile, the heads of the unions have dinner with the local pols on a regular basis. I know guys who worked at one of the local party headquarters and the head of the PBA was there more than the party boss. At the state level, the head of the teachers union is equally present. These people bring guaranteed votes and a lot or resources backing them up, they have tremendous power.

You're not going to see the situation change until the majority of people here just can't make it anymore, and also can't sell their houses. Then you'll have an angry outraged electorate.
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:14 AM
 
1,083 posts, read 2,288,196 times
Reputation: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongoose65 View Post
Dman, I get what you are saying but in this climate NO private industry is going to come in at those salary levels. Not just cops, teachers, etc but every special district, LIPA, etc ad nauseum with multiple employees pulling $100K plus and the resulting pension (even bigger hit). Maybe manufacturing comes in...solderers, pill bottle fillers, etc is what we might get on a good day and those jobs WILL NOT pay 6 figures or result in business expansion that will fill those vacant storefronts or impact the tax base. God only knows what types of tax incentives we will have to offer just to get a business to open here. Basically give them the store for 10 years for the promise a handful of $40k jobs and the votes that come from "creating jobs for LI!"

I also looked at that migration chart that was posted again today. Migration continues to explode OFF the island. Even Buffalo is picking up LI escapees. I'm truly worried. I don't see the impetus to fix anything. LI just blindly forges ahead towards the icebergs. I don't get it. It's sad. I wish I knew how to change the hearts and minds around here but every election I just SMFH at the same incumbents promising nothing, winning and delivering on their promise.

Ah, what's the use. Blah. Glad I'm off tomorrow.
Spot on! The corporations that are left on LI, all three of them (BFS, Cannon and CA, and yes, I know there are more, but these are the leders right now), require (as in expect) huge corporate welfare packages that include multi-milion $$ tax abatements/rebates and utility credits. Most recently, BFS, which was threatening to move more jobs to Texas, received $15mm in a property tax abatement and an equally lucrative LIPA rebate. Companies now expect this kind of discount or they do and will move jobs. Meanwhile, BFS outsources the top jobs to India, while maintaining the print operations on LI. So, you lose the six figure jobs and keep the minimum wage and temp jobs.

All of those success stories you've read about, like 1800Flowers, they have outsourced much of their LI workforce. CA has reduced the size of the HQ by huge numbers. The formerly bustling industrial parks, like Hauppauge, don't bustle like they did in the 80's and 90's and are now composed of predominantly warehouses or empty buildings.

Back over the summer, Newsday was extolling the huge expansion of the Aeroflex company in Deer Park. The funny thing about it, I drive by the new Aeroflex building daily and the parking lot, a key indicator of robustness, is sparsely used. By 5 PM, the place is deserted. Another case of don't believe what you read in Snewsday.

In technology, LI is back to being one of the lower paying regions in the US and that's not going to change any time soon, given the trend.
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:53 AM
 
6,909 posts, read 9,028,891 times
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I am a frequent visitor to France (and sometimes Italy). I noticed that despite the country’s high unemployment, strong union influence, expensive cost of living and high taxes, the French are able to sustain some industries. So why not make LI another Aquitaine? The North Fork and its wineries can be the next Bordeaux. The South Shore can be Landes. The large swath in the middle can be the countryside where residents can produce artisan cheese and butter. Invite top chefs to put up expensive restaurants in Bay Shore charging $50 for omelettes and croissants. Tell the deli stores to rename their coffees “café au lait” and charge $5 for a small cup. Then partner with Gary Loveman to create a Paris-themed neighborhood in Hempstead, complete with replica of Eiffel Tower, Trocadero, and Arc de Triomphe. Old Country Road should be renamed “Champs Vieux Pays” and Roosevelt Field Mall can be converted into a museum for the arts under the patronage of Kate “Marie de Medici” Murray. And don’t forget to put up banners with the words “Toutes Les Gloires de la Nassau et Suffolk” along the Sunrise Highway, Northern State Parkway and LIE for motorists entering or exiting Nassau to see.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,416 posts, read 27,923,260 times
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Originally Posted by Forest_Hills_Daddy View Post
I am a frequent visitor to France (and sometimes Italy). I noticed that despite the country’s high unemployment, strong union influence, expensive cost of living and high taxes, the French are able to sustain some industries. So why not make LI another Aquitaine? The North Fork and its wineries can be the next Bordeaux. The South Shore can be Landes. The large swath in the middle can be the countryside where residents can produce artisan cheese and butter. Invite top chefs to put up expensive restaurants in Bay Shore charging $50 for omelettes and croissants. Tell the deli stores to rename their coffees “café au lait” and charge $5 for a small cup. Then partner with Gary Loveman to create a Paris-themed neighborhood in Hempstead, complete with replica of Eiffel Tower, Trocadero, and Arc de Triomphe. Old Country Road should be renamed “Champs Vieux Pays” and Roosevelt Field Mall can be converted into a museum for the arts under the patronage of Kate “Marie de Medici” Murray. And don’t forget to put up banners with the words “Toutes Les Gloires de la Nassau et Suffolk” along the Sunrise Highway, Northern State Parkway and LIE for motorists entering or exiting Nassau to see.
This could just work!

Mangano and Bellone need to contact the people who designed and built the Paris Hotel & Casino in Las Vegas tout de suite! I've been there and they did quite an authentic job evoking France, including an Eiffel Tower.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:15 PM
 
6,909 posts, read 9,028,891 times
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/\/\

Also include a replica tomb monument with the images of Mangano and Murray lying side by side a-la Henri II and Marie de Medici:

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