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No, that's not what I meant. I probably went to HS before you and it was a different atmosphere back then. There weren't as many CCs and they had a different purpose than they do now. . APs were not offered where I went to school but when I got to college, there were a lot of students who had gone to Long Island schools and had taken AP classes. Their education, overall, was far superior to mine.
1. Even if some AP classes are electives, students who are no longer able to take those AP electives will have to take a different class during that period. Since, at least at the school I graduated from, AP classes were the same size as any other classes, the total number of classes offered will have to remain the same, so there will be no cost savings.
2. At least at the school I attended, AP science classes were taken in place of the regular science class in that discipline, not in addition to it. If students could no longer take the AP science classes, they will have to take the regular classes in that discipline. Since the AP classes were the same size as the regular classes, there would be no cost savings.
One other thing school districts need to be aware of is that if they drop AP classes, then the parents of high achieving students may be tempted to move to a different district that still offers AP classes, or they may be tempted to attend a private school. This will weaken an otherwise good school district.
I still say that if there is some hidden cost involved in offering AP classes, even if the school districts passed that cost on to the students (parents) taking the AP classes, they would still be a better deal than taking those classes in college.
Also the AP classes are theoretically a one semester college class taught over a full year.
The college that I attended offered two semesters of credit (usually 6 credits, or 8 credits in a science class with a lab) for most AP classes, meaning that they were full year (not one semester) classes taught over a full year.
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There's a little more hand-holding at the high school level than at college where students usually have to teach themselves. This can be helpful for a weak subject and some students may take the course over in college anyway, but having the background from HS helps.
I wouldn't exactly say that the high school teachers I had for AP classes did any "hand-holding". In one case, I asked a question in class, and the teacher said "If you don't understand then either you are as dumb as a rock, or you are just trying to be an idiot". I explained that I honestly did not understand, and that "I guess that means I'm as dumb as a rock". It sucks to see that this teacher retired at age 55 and gets a 6 figure pension and health insurance for the rest of his life, while the rest of us have to struggle and will probably not be able to retire until we are dead.
1. Even if some AP classes are electives, students who are no longer able to take those AP electives will have to take a different class during that period. Since, at least at the school I graduated from, AP classes were the same size as any other classes, the total number of classes offered will have to remain the same, so there will be no cost savings.
2. At least at the school I attended, AP science classes were taken in place of the regular science class in that discipline, not in addition to it. If students could no longer take the AP science classes, they will have to take the regular classes in that discipline. Since the AP classes were the same size as the regular classes, there would be no cost savings.
One other thing school districts need to be aware of is that if they drop AP classes, then the parents of high achieving students may be tempted to move to a different district that still offers AP classes, or they may be tempted to attend a private school. This will weaken an otherwise good school district.
I still say that if there is some hidden cost involved in offering AP classes, even if the school districts passed that cost on to the students (parents) taking the AP classes, they would still be a better deal than taking those classes in college.
I described AP courses precisely as they are offered in my daughter's school and make no representations that all districts are identical. At her school, regular Bio, Chem and Physics are required prior to AP version of each. And some AP courses are just pure electives. And some are just accelerated versions of required courses (English, Global, US, Calculus AB, etc). There are scheduling
efficiencies for eliminating AP courses also and that may be to complicated to explain.
I also noted that dropping electives AND dropping a period (add four minutes each to the remaining period) is one way to go to save big bucks. You are so right, if you eliminate a good number of electives the students still have to go somewhere. The solution is to also eliminate a period of instruction. And add 4 minutes or so to each of the remaining periods.
Of course they'll drop AP classes normally offered to the more advanced students but will continually throw so much money into the special ed programs. In my district it was shown twice as much money is spent per pupil on special ed kids than your average kid.
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Originally Posted by mgt04
Of course they'll drop AP classes normally offered to the more advanced students but will continually throw so much money into the special ed programs. In my district it was shown twice as much money is spent per pupil on special ed kids than your average kid.
And that is an argument that can go round & round till eternity arrives and no one ever seems to be happy with the solution..
When your child is at the top or bottom of the spectrum there are all the options in the world, for the average student who just needs a little ooph to get over a rough patch there is nothing.
Some AP classes are for courses that are not required so dropping them is a big savings in terms of teachers (think AP Psychology or AP Environmental ). Some are elective follow-ons for required classes (AP Bio is taken after regular Bio, AP Chemistry is taken after regular Chemistry, AP French after regular French, etc) so dropping them is a big savings in terms of teachers. Some are taken instead of the required class (Think AP English [lit or Compostion] instead of English 11 and 12 or AP US History instead of US History) so dropping them means more efficiently dividing the student body so this represents some sort of savings each year.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FEES FOR AP EXAMS.
There seems to be a growing discussion to drop electives in general. This includes AP courses, many language and music courses, and 'traditional' electives (Sociology, Criminology, Psychology, Computers, many art classes, film, etc). I am sure the immediate savings are obvious. One district I have heard of dropped almost all electives and dropped a period off the middle school/high school 9-period school day (and stretched each remaining period 4 minutes) resulting in a huge savings in eliminated teacher positions.
There is certainly a tremendous amount of money to be saved if this is done and in combination with raising class size and trimming administrative fat. Especially given LI's declining enrollment.
Teachers who taught the AP classes I had taken (AP English and Bio) also taught regular sections of those courses. Hypothetically, if those two AP course were not offered, the students who would have been eligible to have taken them would alternatively have required honors level courses in those subject areas. With all due respect, I don't see how eliminating AP courses gives the ability to reduce the number of teachers -- with the exception being the rather drastic measure employed by the one district you've cited.
Any HS that cuts classes is doing it to save money. Say you have 20 students in an AP Social Studies class, and you have 5 regular social studies classes on that grade level. You simply divide the 20 AP students among the other 5 classes increasing enrollment in them by 4 students each. Or they go into electives. Most contracts allow districts to have classes go over enrollment by 5-7 students. You may be able to reduce staff if you have part time SS teachers. Districts save money on AP test days that require the use of several subs while teachers monitor tests. Teachers do not have to attend AP conferences, requiring travel, sometimes to other towns, and more subs. Marking days require more subs. remember an AP teacher in a subject probably teaches 4 other courses. Most districts require parents to pay for AP classes but many districts with a high number of low income students pay for the classes, so eliminating them is more cost savings. Save $100,000 per yearly budget and you have salary and benefits for a young teacher, maybe 1.5 . AP classes are not required, are taken only after NYS graduation requirements in that subject have been fulfilled, and can be replaced by electives.
Some districts replace AP with IB programs (International Baccalaureate) which while more expensive to originally set up, but are less expensive to run once staff are trained. So if a school has AP AND IB, they may chose to get rid of AP and keep IB.
And parents are finding that many colleges no longer accept AP credits or require very high scores.
And once the May test s taken schools are finding they need another program to keep the AP students busy until June.
Last edited by Ebogdanoff; 01-28-2013 at 09:06 AM..
Reason: Poor typing
Teachers who taught the AP classes I had taken (AP English and Bio) also taught regular sections of those courses. Hypothetically, if those two AP course were not offered, the students who would have been eligible to have taken them would alternatively have required honors level courses in those subject areas. With all due respect, I don't see how eliminating AP courses gives the ability to reduce the number of teachers -- with the exception being the rather drastic measure employed by the one district you've cited.
Same when I was in H.S. In fact my senior year AP English teacher taught the remedial kids and you'd want to be a fly on the wall for some of those interactions. Funny stuff. There was more than 1 section of AP classes too.
No, that's not what I meant. I probably went to HS before you and it was a different atmosphere back then. There weren't as many CCs and they had a different purpose than they do now. . APs were not offered where I went to school but when I got to college, there were a lot of students who had gone to Long Island schools and had taken AP classes. Their education, overall, was far superior to mine.
Yeah, people with better educations happen, oh well. You get a job, go to night school, get an Associates, get a better job, get experience and keep furthering your education. And one day you might even work with and be in charge of some of those guys who originally had the better education.
Blue and White class of '77. Go Bulldogs!
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A money issue
