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Old 08-09-2016, 04:13 PM
 
939 posts, read 502,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest_Hills_Daddy View Post
You don't have to go to law school or med school to get a white collar job. And with medicine, you can advance your career by agreeing to work in underserved locations (not quite an Olympic effort). I work for an investment bank. We are hiring people from different colleges that are not ivy league in areas like compliance, risk governance, stress testing and regulatory relations. And there is no urgency to get promoted quickly while you are young, which gives workers plenty of time to learn and get experience at their own pace. Same thing with my old company. There is still a clear middle area between entry level and high profile positions and you don't need to make Olympic-level efforts to achieve this. Not saying it is not competitive, but the order of magnitude is not yet the same.
And you don't have to invest hours in practice or specialized training to play on the company softball team.

We are talking Olympic and pro-level athletes. That does not compare to someone working a low or mid-level position at an investment bank. Even so, how many of those non-Ivy league compliance people are going to make it to the c-suite? How many will do so without a plan and the willingness to sacrifice the needed time and effort to get there?

I'll almost guarantee that those who "learn and get experience at their own pace" and have no "urgency to get promoted quickly" will not make it to the top. Not that there is anything wrong with that... but the topic is about making it to that 1% of 1% at the top.

Odd exception aside, it is the same for all endeavors. People who reach the very top levels of their field have had their eye on the ball for a long time and usually make sacrifices along the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest_Hills_Daddy View Post
Your analogy about BigLaw is right, but the point is that ever increasing hypercompetition is not inevitable in the while collar job market. Not yet, at least.
We are probably thinking of two different things.

Hypercompetition is not only inevitable in the white collar job market - it is very much alive and well. Again, I am not referring to mid-management positions. At the "Olympic level" positions, there has always been hypercompetition.
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Old 08-09-2016, 04:48 PM
 
6,883 posts, read 8,097,898 times
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Originally Posted by Joe461 View Post
And you don't have to invest hours in practice or specialized training to play on the company softball team.

We are talking Olympic and pro-level athletes. That does not compare to someone working a low or mid-level position at an investment bank. Even so, how many of those non-Ivy league compliance people are going to make it to the c-suite? How many will do so without a plan and the willingness to sacrifice the needed time and effort to get there?

I'll almost guarantee that those who "learn and get experience at their own pace" and have no "urgency to get promoted quickly" will not make it to the top. Not that there is anything wrong with that... but the topic is about making it to that 1% of 1% at the top.

Odd exception aside, it is the same for all endeavors. People who reach the very top levels of their field have had their eye on the ball for a long time and usually make sacrifices along the way.



We are probably thinking of two different things.

Hypercompetition is not only inevitable in the white collar job market - it is very much alive and well. Again, I am not referring to mid-management positions. At the "Olympic level" positions, there has always been hypercompetition.
Playing in the company's softball team does not pay a stable 6 digit salary with benefits and 401k matching either, unlike VP compliance. Neither does coaching the neighborhood league. So the analogy does not apply. College students dont major in business with the aim of playing in the company's softball team, and one would think the same is true for kids who get into youth softball (with whom one would think the minimum expectation is to get a college scholarship)

As for being the boss, well its still not the same. Yes youll have to work harder than others but its not all or nothing, feast or famine, money wise or title wise. You're much better protected in the downside financially.

There is the difference. In sports, it is indeed a 1% of 1% endeavor financially even if the aim is a meaningful college scholarship. With business/white collar, it's a matter of choice if you want to play to be 1% of 1%.

Last edited by Forest_Hills_Daddy; 08-09-2016 at 05:22 PM..
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Old 08-10-2016, 06:59 AM
 
939 posts, read 502,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest_Hills_Daddy View Post
Playing in the company's softball team does not pay a stable 6 digit salary with benefits and 401k matching either, unlike VP compliance. Neither does coaching the neighborhood league. So the analogy does not apply. College students dont major in business with the aim of playing in the company's softball team, and one would think the same is true for kids who get into youth softball (with whom one would think the minimum expectation is to get a college scholarship)

As for being the boss, well its still not the same. Yes youll have to work harder than others but its not all or nothing, feast or famine, money wise or title wise. You're much better protected in the downside financially.

There is the difference. In sports, it is indeed a 1% of 1% endeavor financially even if the aim is a meaningful college scholarship. With business/white collar, it's a matter of choice if you want to play to be 1% of 1%.

My point was that if you want to be in that 1% of 1% in business, you are planning it out from early in life much like a top athlete. I'm not sure what those who didn't make it to (or didn't really try for) the top level have to do with anything. It is always a matter or choice to strive for the top, whether it is business, sports, music or entertainment. That "hypercompetition" exists in all fields for those wishing to reach the top. I don't understand how you can deny its existence in the business world.
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:23 AM
 
1,343 posts, read 4,066,035 times
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Originally Posted by Joe461 View Post
My point was that if you want to be in that 1% of 1% in business, you are planning it out from early in life much like a top athlete. I'm not sure what those who didn't make it to (or didn't really try for) the top level have to do with anything. It is always a matter or choice to strive for the top, whether it is business, sports, music or entertainment. That "hypercompetition" exists in all fields for those wishing to reach the top. I don't understand how you can deny its existence in the business world.

I agree with Forest_Hills_Daddy.
Yeah in the top of the top in business, it takes careful planning and a lot of grooming from an early age. However, you're missing the point of the sports vs business analogy.

The little kid who does football and baseball drills all throughout elementary school, middle school etc. Unless they are in the top small % of kids, they're not getting a college scholarship and if they are not in the top 1% there, they are playing flag football for fun on the weekends and on the company softball team.
All those drills and training for virtually nothing, a tiny infinitesimally small chance and the "love of the game".

Focusing a kid on academics and business skills, even if you're aiming to be the top 1%, those who fall short, fall in the top 5%. Even if you start just encouraging and not ram it down the kids throat, top 25% or whatever, can be had with some effort. There is a rung on the ladder for you, and it will pay your mortgage.

Frankly I think there is something hugely wrong with this country that people are trying to drill sports into their kids in order to get into college. Its completely a completely misfocused reward system, nevermind the fact that higher-level education which is available free or cheap in other countries is kept hostage by how much of your future you're willing to mortgage or how well you play a game that is completely meaningless to your adult life.
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Old 08-10-2016, 09:38 AM
 
6,883 posts, read 8,097,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisk327 View Post
I agree with Forest_Hills_Daddy.
Yeah in the top of the top in business, it takes careful planning and a lot of grooming from an early age. However, you're missing the point of the sports vs business analogy.

The little kid who does football and baseball drills all throughout elementary school, middle school etc. Unless they are in the top small % of kids, they're not getting a college scholarship and if they are not in the top 1% there, they are playing flag football for fun on the weekends and on the company softball team.
All those drills and training for virtually nothing, a tiny infinitesimally small chance and the "love of the game".

Focusing a kid on academics and business skills, even if you're aiming to be the top 1%, those who fall short, fall in the top 5%. Even if you start just encouraging and not ram it down the kids throat, top 25% or whatever, can be had with some effort. There is a rung on the ladder for you, and it will pay your mortgage.

Yes, this is what I was saying. In business, you can recalibrate your goals and still be financially secure (stable base salary, 401K, benefits etc.) if you don't want to be in the 1%. It does not require performing at the elite level. Furthermore, settling for AVP/VP today, for example, does not stop you from aiming to be SVP/CEO years later maybe when you are more prepared at which point it may not even feel like a 1% effort. With elite sports, even aspiring for a college scholarship would require a 1% effort with the same low odds of success, and the bar keeps moving higher every year. Agree that there is no other way to succeed financially in sports but one cannot compare sports and business and say that the level of competition is similarly "inevitable" in both because the financial dynamics are poles apart.

Last edited by Forest_Hills_Daddy; 08-10-2016 at 09:48 AM..
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:15 AM
 
939 posts, read 502,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisk327 View Post
I agree with Forest_Hills_Daddy.
Yeah in the top of the top in business, it takes careful planning and a lot of grooming from an early age.
Which was my point. "Forest_Hills_Daddy" seemed to claim the contrary, which is what I disputed. Somehow, things went off track from there.

Quote:
However, you're missing the point of the sports vs business analogy.

The little kid who does football and baseball drills all throughout elementary school, middle school etc. Unless they are in the top small % of kids, they're not getting a college scholarship and if they are not in the top 1% there, they are playing flag football for fun on the weekends and on the company softball team.
All those drills and training for virtually nothing, a tiny infinitesimally small chance and the "love of the game".
I don't think I am missing the point. If you are talking a full-ride at a top school or becoming a star player in a professional sport, that's one thing. But there is plenty of "middle ground" in sports as well. Many jobs exist in the sports industry - working at ESPN, being a sports writer, PT/medical staff, gym teacher, college level coach, team support staff, front office management, running a clinic to train those kids who want to be the next generation of sports stars or an agent. In "celebrity" fields, people seem to forget the thousands of (often well paid) people who are not in the spotlight.

There is also plenty of scholarship money for players who aren't top athletes. The amounts vary, but for many it can the difference between affording a good college or not.

Granted, the monetary opportunities are less for someone who only wants to play, but there are still opportunities.

I see where you are coming from, but I don't think there are that many kids training to such insane levels that they miss out on a decent education. I have seen overly ambitious parents, but when a kid is playing a single sport year round, they generally have both talent and desire to do so.

Quote:
Focusing a kid on academics and business skills, even if you're aiming to be the top 1%, those who fall short, fall in the top 5%. Even if you start just encouraging and not ram it down the kids throat, top 25% or whatever, can be had with some effort. There is a rung on the ladder for you, and it will pay your mortgage.
I have never been a fan of the sports approach. My child was right near the cutoff birthdate for school. I pushed to have him moved ahead... he was the youngest kid in the grade. A friend in a similar situation told me I was crazy... he held his kid back. Why? So the kid would be the biggest/oldest in his grade and have a better shot at sports and college money. To each their own. Ironically, his kid gave up on sports and mine ended up getting some scholarship money.

Quote:
Frankly I think there is something hugely wrong with this country that people are trying to drill sports into their kids in order to get into college. Its completely a completely misfocused reward system, nevermind the fact that higher-level education which is available free or cheap in other countries is kept hostage by how much of your future you're willing to mortgage or how well you play a game that is completely meaningless to your adult life.
I'm with you 100%. I think sports is highly over-rated and over-emphasized. I read an article a while back talking about school budget cuts. It complained that one of the first things to be cut are music programs... the football team always seems to have funding. It claimed a similar emphasis on music would provide more financial opportunities in the real world than sports ability and we are doing our kids a disservice by prioritizing the wrong things.
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:30 AM
 
939 posts, read 502,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest_Hills_Daddy View Post
Yes, this is what I was saying. In business, you can recalibrate your goals and still be financially secure (stable base salary, 401K, benefits etc.) if you don't want to be in the 1%.
Why can't you do that in sports? Gym teacher, golf pro, team coach and many other jobs are available for those who "don't want to be in the 1%." Why do you assume that a sports career means superstar or nothing?

Quote:
It does not require performing at the elite level. Furthermore, settling for AVP/VP today, for example, does not stop you from aiming to be SVP/CEO years later maybe when you are more prepared at which point it may not even feel like a 1% effort. With elite sports, even aspiring for a college scholarship would require a 1% effort with the same low odds of success, and the bar keeps moving higher every year.
Granted, the useful life of an athlete is lower than in business. That still doesn't apply to all the non-star player job opportunities. Then again, business can also be a young man's game. In the "not interested in being the 1%" positions you refer to, being over 50 is a dangerous place to be. "Secure" is a relative term.


Quote:
Agree that there is no other way to succeed financially in sports but one cannot compare sports and business and say that the level of competition is similarly "inevitable" in both because the financial dynamics are poles apart.
If the first part of that is not a typo, you are wrong. There are many other ways to succeed financially in sports.

I still maintain that the level of competition is very similar in ALL field - for those trying to reach the very top level. It is similarly less competitve for those who are satisfied with reaching less than the pinnacle.

Let's just agree to disagree.
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:50 AM
 
6,883 posts, read 8,097,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe461 View Post
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]Idon't think I am missing the point. If you are talking a full-ride at a topschool or becoming a star player in a professional sport, that's one thing. But there is plenty of "middle ground" in sports as well. Many jobs existin the sports industry - working at ESPN, being a sports writer, PT/medicalstaff, gym teacher, college level coach, team support staff, front officemanagement, running a clinic to train those kids who want to be the nextgeneration of sports stars or an agent. In "celebrity" fields, peopleseem to forget the thousands of (often well paid) people who are not in thespotlight.
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]

This is plausible but to what extent can you build a lifetime career with upward promotion and a nest egg with these “middle” options? Of the examples you mentioned here, only college [head] coach and running a reputable elite clinic would arguably require elite youth sports background. For example, I checked the resumes of some of the golf teaching pros at Chelsea Piers read like with today’s skills they could have won PGA tournaments 25 years ago. That's why good clients would pay good money for their services. Hence, you would still need to have been that 1% of 1%. Others like working at ESPN, PT, etc. don't require youth sports or even varsity background.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe461 View Post
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]Thereis also plenty of scholarship money for players who aren't top athletes. Theamounts vary, but for many it can the difference between affording a goodcollege or not.


Granted,the monetary opportunities are less for someone who only wants to play, but there are still opportunities.
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]

It’s extremely competitive, even for a 30% room and board scholarship which would make the assistance material enough. If you try out even for a Division II school today, you’ll be competing for good money with athletes whose skills today might have made them Olympians years ago or national team members of foreign countries. And as I’ve stated, the bar keeps getting raised ever higher year after year.

Last edited by Forest_Hills_Daddy; 08-10-2016 at 11:00 AM..
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