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Old 03-26-2008, 06:33 PM
 
1,058 posts, read 2,986,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiaam View Post
Why not start a post based on overall test scores such as reading and math on the state standardize exams, instead of race?
Here are the top 10 School Districts based on the number of students graduating with Advanced Regents Diplomas.

1. Jericho
2. Great Neck
3. Syosset
4. Manhasset
5. Garden City
6. Roslyn
7. Plainview
8. Cold Spring Harbor
9. Herricks
10. Half Hollow Hills
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Old 03-26-2008, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Wellsville, Glurt County
2,845 posts, read 8,443,986 times
Reputation: 1364
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiaam View Post
Why not start a post based on overall test scores such as reading and math on the state standardize exams, instead of race?
Those statistics have been posted here many times. I know this because I've posted them here myself.....and in comparing the two sets of data, you'll notice that there is not a direct correlation between % of white students and standardized test scores. Judging from this, Nassau County especially is becoming significantly more diverse while at the same time retaining excellent schools....how is that a bad thing?
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Old 03-26-2008, 07:30 PM
 
1,058 posts, read 2,986,874 times
Reputation: 223
Default For the most part you are correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean View Post
Those statistics have been posted here many times. I know this because I've posted them here myself.....and in comparing the two sets of data, you'll notice that there is not a direct correlation between % of white students and standardized test scores. Judging from this, Nassau County especially is becoming significantly more diverse while at the same time retaining excellent schools....how is that a bad thing?
Is there a correlation? yes and no. For Garden City the answer is yes, for Herricks the answer is no. So overall there is no direct correlation between student achievement and diversity or lack thereof. I would argue that all of the best districts do have one thing in common and that is they are all serving upper middle class or even upper class students.

I agree with your statement to a certain degree about Nassau County. Nassau's schools seem to be better overall than those in Suffolk. The top two districts in Suffolk are Cold Spring Harbor and Half Hollow Hills. However, I believe it is a matter of class and not race. It appears that the race of an area can change and be fluid, but what doesn't change is class.

For example, look at Herricks. It has become more diverse and yet the schools are outstanding. Why didn't the schools get worse? Because the new residents paid through the nose to live in an area with better schools. They had to have the resources to live in the area. They would most definitely be professionals, educated and/or very wealthy. As a result they would put a high premium on securing a good education for their children.

Other areas of Nassau that are changing such as Levittown or East Meadow will remain what they have always been, working class neighborhoods. It will not matter if the people living in Levittown are White or Hispanic because the area draws from the same economic class.

So what is happening is class is dividing Long Island more than race.
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Wellsville, Glurt County
2,845 posts, read 8,443,986 times
Reputation: 1364
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbres View Post
Is there a correlation? yes and no. For Garden City the answer is yes, for Herricks the answer is no. So overall there is no direct correlation between student achievement and diversity or lack thereof. I would argue that all of the best districts do have one thing in common and that is they are all serving upper middle class or even upper class students.

I agree with your statement to a certain degree about Nassau County. Nassau's schools seem to be better overall than those in Suffolk. The top two districts in Suffolk are Cold Spring Harbor and Half Hollow Hills. However, I believe it is a matter of class and not race. It appears that the race of an area can change and be fluid, but what doesn't change is class.

For example, look at Herricks. It has become more diverse and yet the schools are outstanding. Why didn't the schools get worse? Because the new residents paid through the nose to live in an area with better schools. They had to have the resources to live in the area. They would most definitely be professionals, educated and/or very wealthy. As a result they would put a high premium on securing a good education for their children.

Other areas of Nassau that are changing such as Levittown or East Meadow will remain what they have always been, working class neighborhoods. It will not matter if the people living in Levittown are White or Hispanic because the area draws from the same economic class.

So what is happening is class is dividing Long Island more than race.
I agree completely. The number one factor is money, with very few exceptions to the rule. The same reason why I'd imagine the "top" districts are in Nassau - simply because there's more money on the top end in Nassau.

For years and years, the old stereotypes have persisted. Supposedly once minorities start to move into an area it's all over. Time to pack up and move out east. I think having access to this data helps dispel those old myths....because once perceptions change, obviously it is going to hurt an area. Everyone knows this happens and that it's been going on for generations.

Look at Valley Stream right now. Everything I read about VS on here tells me that it's a dump. You go to Green Acres Mall you get shot, the schools are awful and infested with gangs, "it's not the same", etc., etc....but anecdotal evidence is unreliable. When I look at statistics I see that all three VS high schools are now under 50% white. When I look at the test scores I see all three high schools do great. When I look up statistics regarding income I see the median isn't any different from surrounding white majority areas, kids in the schools aren't on free lunch programs, poverty levels are very low. When I look up crime statistics I see a decrease in the last decade. When I drive around Valley Stream I see the homes look exactly the same as they did ten years ago when they were full of Italian and Jewish families, the types of cars in the driveway are the same as they were.....the only difference is when I see people walking around their skin is darker....

With access to the numbers, you gotta ask yourself....how many times has this scenario been repeated throughout the country? How many decent, working and middle class areas became ghettos on name alone and were allowed to rot because people thought they were "too good" to live amongst minorities? It's pretty wild to think about. I'm sure a lot of people are gonna disagree with this post but there's really nothing more I can say on it....
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Old 03-27-2008, 03:30 AM
 
1,058 posts, read 2,986,874 times
Reputation: 223
Default Good Analysis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean View Post
I agree completely. The number one factor is money, with very few exceptions to the rule. The same reason why I'd imagine the "top" districts are in Nassau - simply because there's more money on the top end in Nassau.

For years and years, the old stereotypes have persisted. Supposedly once minorities start to move into an area it's all over. Time to pack up and move out east. I think having access to this data helps dispel those old myths....because once perceptions change, obviously it is going to hurt an area. Everyone knows this happens and that it's been going on for generations.

Look at Valley Stream right now. Everything I read about VS on here tells me that it's a dump. You go to Green Acres Mall you get shot, the schools are awful and infested with gangs, "it's not the same", etc., etc....but anecdotal evidence is unreliable. When I look at statistics I see that all three VS high schools are now under 50% white. When I look at the test scores I see all three high schools do great. When I look up statistics regarding income I see the median isn't any different from surrounding white majority areas, kids in the schools aren't on free lunch programs, poverty levels are very low. When I look up crime statistics I see a decrease in the last decade. When I drive around Valley Stream I see the homes look exactly the same as they did ten years ago when they were full of Italian and Jewish families, the types of cars in the driveway are the same as they were.....the only difference is when I see people walking around their skin is darker....

With access to the numbers, you gotta ask yourself....how many times has this scenario been repeated throughout the country? How many decent, working and middle class areas became ghettos on name alone and were allowed to rot because people thought they were "too good" to live amongst minorities? It's pretty wild to think about. I'm sure a lot of people are gonna disagree with this post but there's really nothing more I can say on it....

I think I'll write something, when I have the time, in more detail about some of the issues you mention about Whites leaving certain areas. I have a new theory about White Flight. Anyway, yes it is all about the money.

NBRES' 1st Law of motion: an area of a particular class will remain of that class even if the race of the people in that area changes.

Class seems to trump race.
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Old 03-27-2008, 04:56 AM
VTP
 
200 posts, read 788,978 times
Reputation: 98
Nbres, does comfort level factor into your White Flight theory? Is it possible that people of one kind prefer to be with others of that kind? Objects of a like kind attract each other. That sounds like it could be some sort of a principle of motion also. Even if the physical appearance of Valley Stream has remained unchanged in the past decade (and I can't offer an opinion on that as I haven't been there in all that time), the one aspect of its physical appearance that has changed (according to an earlier post) is the color of the skin of those seen walking about. That one change, alone, is apparently enough to drive people away in droves even if things like crime rates, income levels and school stats do not change. And, if the unchanged nature of the area defeats any argument that a "White Flighter" might have about crime-related fears, academic performance, etc. , then what's left? Comfort level? It would seem to be. And this applies to people of all races, I think. Haven't you been to office functions such as picnics where all the black employees sit at one table and all the whites at another? Despite the lack of any animosity between the two? I think many people are content to immerse themselves into new and different surroundings (as evidenced by some quotes in this board), but many others (perhaps more) simply leave one area because "those of a like kind" have left before them. Of course money does factor into this, too, but I think just plain, unadulterated comfort level is huge.
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Old 03-27-2008, 09:04 AM
 
222 posts, read 751,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VTP View Post
Nbres, does comfort level factor into your White Flight theory? Is it possible that people of one kind prefer to be with others of that kind? Objects of a like kind attract each other. That sounds like it could be some sort of a principle of motion also. Even if the physical appearance of Valley Stream has remained unchanged in the past decade (and I can't offer an opinion on that as I haven't been there in all that time), the one aspect of its physical appearance that has changed (according to an earlier post) is the color of the skin of those seen walking about. That one change, alone, is apparently enough to drive people away in droves even if things like crime rates, income levels and school stats do not change. And, if the unchanged nature of the area defeats any argument that a "White Flighter" might have about crime-related fears, academic performance, etc. , then what's left? Comfort level? It would seem to be. And this applies to people of all races, I think. Haven't you been to office functions such as picnics where all the black employees sit at one table and all the whites at another? Despite the lack of any animosity between the two? I think many people are content to immerse themselves into new and different surroundings (as evidenced by some quotes in this board), but many others (perhaps more) simply leave one area because "those of a like kind" have left before them. Of course money does factor into this, too, but I think just plain, unadulterated comfort level is huge.
Nbres and VTP both make excellent and highly accurate points. My theory is that many folks perceive people of color moving in as a poor reflection on their own socio-economic status. This influences the "comfort" factor regardless of the fact that the new minority family paid more for that house and may out-earn their white neighbors. Some folks panic because they don't want their friends/family colleagues to think that they can't get out of the impending invasion.

Nbres makes and excellent point that when you look at the changing demographics of some areas...that all that's really changed---not scores or upkeep, just skin color. The problem is that once the whites begin to move out they then bad-mouth the area, which in turn cause additional discomfort w/ other white folks. Now "poof" Valley Stream and "Westwood" are now "ghettos". It's actually quite laughable.

Now their are exceptions to this rule where there are simply less-desirable areas (parts of Hempstead, Roosevelt, Brentwood, Wyandanch), but this is more economically driven.

Westbury is a perfect example of the exception when it comes to disconnects between school district and socio-ecominc status. If you used certain school based metrics to identify an area's wealth (i.e. # of free lunches, esl levels, % of disadvantaged students) you might think westbury was some "poor" underprivileged area. A couple of thing drive this:

1) The majority of middle & upper-middle income parents send their kids to private school (in Westbury S.D.) Thus the public schools are heavily skewed toward the New Cassel cohort of students where the lion-share of the socio-ecomomic problems exist.

2) Further supporting #1 is that a large part of the middle and upper-middle class A.A. in the village are of Caribbean descent and they strongly believe in private school education. I myself (although born here) was brought up to believe that public school was inferior (in addition to satisfying my parents desire for me to have a religious education).

This creates the skewed school stats that really don't reflect the economic position of the Village as a whole.
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Old 03-27-2008, 08:42 PM
VTP
 
200 posts, read 788,978 times
Reputation: 98
I think Village's point about the perception that friends/family may have about the domicile of another is accurate too. When the basic question "Where do you live?" is posed to residents of more dubious areas, I've often heard the actual response prefaced by comments such as "It's not as bad as you've heard, but I live in...." or "Well, for now, I'm in ... but I'll be moving soon" or "I live in ... but in a really nice house" or "I live in ... but that's because I inherited the house for free." I could go on with others. It does seem that people have a lot invested in what other people think about their address, regardless of whether the true situation may not support the perception of an area. And of course, that does factor into comfort level.
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Old 03-28-2008, 04:17 PM
 
Location: home...finally, home .
8,051 posts, read 17,018,324 times
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The top two districts in Suffolk are Cold Spring Harbor and Half Hollow Hills.

and they are right on the border, really of Nassau and Suffolk.
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People may not recall what you said to them, but they will always remember how you made them feel .
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Old 03-29-2008, 04:11 PM
 
9 posts, read 26,307 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean View Post
I agree completely. The number one factor is money, with very few exceptions to the rule. The same reason why I'd imagine the "top" districts are in Nassau - simply because there's more money on the top end in Nassau.

For years and years, the old stereotypes have persisted. Supposedly once minorities start to move into an area it's all over. Time to pack up and move out east. I think having access to this data helps dispel those old myths....because once perceptions change, obviously it is going to hurt an area. Everyone knows this happens and that it's been going on for generations.

Look at Valley Stream right now. Everything I read about VS on here tells me that it's a dump. You go to Green Acres Mall you get shot, the schools are awful and infested with gangs, "it's not the same", etc., etc....but anecdotal evidence is unreliable. When I look at statistics I see that all three VS high schools are now under 50% white. When I look at the test scores I see all three high schools do great. When I look up statistics regarding income I see the median isn't any different from surrounding white majority areas, kids in the schools aren't on free lunch programs, poverty levels are very low. When I look up crime statistics I see a decrease in the last decade. When I drive around Valley Stream I see the homes look exactly the same as they did ten years ago when they were full of Italian and Jewish families, the types of cars in the driveway are the same as they were.....the only difference is when I see people walking around their skin is darker....

With access to the numbers, you gotta ask yourself....how many times has this scenario been repeated throughout the country? How many decent, working and middle class areas became ghettos on name alone and were allowed to rot because people thought they were "too good" to live amongst minorities? It's pretty wild to think about. I'm sure a lot of people are gonna disagree with this post but there's really nothing more I can say on it....
I grew up in Valley Stream and lived there until I was almost 30. When I went to school, the town was white to the point where crosses were burned on the lawns of a couple of black families that moved in. My parents still live there as does my sister and her family. She is more than satisfied with the education her kids are receiving and her kids do not have any problems with "gang activity in school".

The one bad thing is the influx of Queens residents who somehow manage to use Valley Stream addresses to send their kids to V.S. schools. Black, white, hispanic......it really doesn't matter. No one wants their tax dollars supporting kids whose families don't contribute taxes to the community.
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