~#~ The 51st State ~#~ (New York, Buffalo, Rochester: house, buyers, schools)

[Kbinspections]

Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean

This is BS that I hear constantly from people upstate. There is an enormous disparity in the amount of revenue generated for the state by residents of NYC, Long Island and the lower Hudson Valley counties than they receive back in state aid. Where do you think that money goes? Your taxes would be even higher if "downstate" wasn't providing your local government with over a quarter of their budget. This is not indicative of a "downstate conspiracy" by our representatives in the legislature to me....

By far the highest taxes paid anywhere in New York are property taxes. Next time you pay them, look at what they break down to. The majority goes to your local school district, the rest to whatever local government assesses the property, where it is redistributed to fire districts, water districts, public highways, police, etc. In Nassau County it is handled by the county, in Suffolk it is handled by the towns but this is always a local government power and is not controlled, influenced or PAID to the state itself in any way. Yeah, that's right: Property taxes don't leave whatever county you live in.

You know what upstate's problem is? They don't build things in this country anymore. It's as simple as that. There are no jobs, there is no job growth. Long Island has the same exact problem, but luckily were close to NYC where jobs are abundant. This isn't even a problem exclusive to New York, it's the whole country.

I am a native Long Islander but lived upstate for awhile and loved it. I still make trips to various locales upstate on the regular and my only complaint is that a lot of people have a really stupid idea up there about NYC and "downstate" in general. Granted a lot of people down here are ridiculous too, but it's not as big of a subject. You guys gotta look at the facts and instead of crying that NYC is stealing your money focus on some way to spark your economy.

Sorry Sean x4 but you are wrong..........School district gets their money but the state does not give dollar for dollar back for aid. School districts have to guess how much money the state is going to give them because they cant get the budget passed every on time.

NYS state collects so much income tax, corp. tax lottery ect. Then distributes to roads, schools, state police etc. but we do not get back what we spend. So our schools get 30% less, our roads are 30% less etc. NYS does not want to tell you this but it is true. If our schools get a 30% increase in state aid, school taxes would be lower.

[sean sean sean sean]

Originally Posted by Kbinspections

Sorry Sean x4 but you are wrong..........School district gets their money but the state does not give dollar for dollar back for aid. School districts have to guess how much money the state is going to give them because they cant get the budget passed every on time.

NYS state collects so much income tax, corp. tax lottery ect. Then distributes to roads, schools, state police etc. but we do not get back what we spend. So our schools get 30% less, our roads are 30% less etc. NYS does not want to tell you this but it is true. If our schools get a 30% increase in state aid, school taxes would be lower.

KB, that's exactly what I said.....I dunno where you got otherwise??

Look...

"There is an enormous disparity in the amount of revenue generated for the state by residents of NYC, Long Island and the lower Hudson Valley counties than they receive back in state aid. Where do you think that money goes? Your taxes would be even higher if "downstate" wasn't providing your local government with over a quarter of their budget."

[Kbinspections]

Sorry.....read it too fast, I guess I was 1/2 asleep!

[VTP]

Some of the upstate angst becomes trickier still when it is realized that downstaters, who own much of the valuable (read: highly taxable) real estate there, in the way of scond homes, are subsidizing their schools, parks, libraries, fire departments, etc. with their tax payments. Often, locals live in the more modest residences, while downstaters are fortunate to occupy newly constructed weekend houses near lakes and ski areas. I'm not sure how the recent economic downturn has affected the rate of new constructions upstate, but until very recently, new residences were being constructed at a rate of 1,000 per year in the Adirondack Park alone. The vast majority of these are second homes, and their size and amenities dictate that their owners will pay sizeable amounts in taxes. Just this year, many second residences in Warren County were re-assessed at 75% of their previous value. Town and county officials assure that the resulting tax increase will be felt only incrementally, but it will be felt, to be sure. Meanwhile, although there is a lot of local griping about the "rich downstaters" who are invading their turf, the locals in many areas have benefiitted from greatly improved school facilities and academic programs, as well as environmental improvements to public parkland, beaches, docking facilities, etc. -- not to mention jobs in recreational and restaurant fields. In some areas with strong insurgence of downstate weekend residents, there are schools that received poor ratings as recently as a decade ago, and now are well regarded. To some degree, the locals' animosity is understood, but the broader picture needs to be realized as well. I'm not sure how this point ties in, exactly, to the proposed secession of Long Island, but it expands on the previously raised issue of upstate/downstate funding and attitudes.

[Jrprofess]

Originally Posted by nancy thereader

Any opinions on Long Island becoming the 51st state (as proposed by more than one official ) ? Do you think it'll ever happen ?

I would love to see this amount of effort, scrutiny and citizen/political support be focused on fixing the current local cost issues and school spend.

I find it frustrating that we would consider something as drastic as seceding into a 51st state (even if a casual consideration) and not instead ask some hard questions and make some drastic reforms of our present system. If we are willing to go as far as considering a 51st state, we can't first successfully move school administration into a countywide shared service, consolidate fire districts, and address government and school lifetime benefits with more contribution from the participants? So instead we leap ahead to severing ourselves from the state...

[Walter Greenspan]

Originally Posted by Jrprofess

I would love to see this amount of effort, scrutiny and citizen/political support be focused on fixing the current local cost issues and school spend.

I find it frustrating that we would consider something as drastic as seceding into a 51st state (even if a casual consideration) and not instead ask some hard questions and make some drastic reforms of our present system.

Why do you assume that a 51st state would still have gov't schools: a 51st state could eliminate gov't schools and thus no more property tax to pay for gov't schools. Now, that would be a real reform of our present system.

[OhBeeHave]

Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan

Why do you assume that a 51st state would still have gov't schools: a 51st state could eliminate gov't schools and thus no more property tax to pay for gov't schools. Now, that would be a real reform of our present system.

I was thinking something along the same line, but what becomes of all of the NYS cert teachers who once taught in the (former) NYS public schools which would then be situated in Paumanauk State? I can't believe the teachers union would roll over easily in that matter.

[Walter Greenspan]

Originally Posted by OhBeeHave

I was thinking something along the same line, but what becomes of all of the NYS cert teachers who once taught in the (former) NYS public schools which would then be situated in Paumanauk State? I can't believe the teachers union would roll over easily in that matter.

All the NYS certified teachers, well, at least the good ones with an entrepreneurial spirit, would buy some of the existing school buildings and operate them as private schools.

Sure would make for an interesting political battle, to say the least, and secession might be the only way to break the teacher union stranglehold on gov't schools.

[I'minformed2]

Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean

It's even worse down here, school taxes alone on a 50 year old ranch home on a 60x100 foot plot of land in Nassau County are typically $5k-$6k and rising fast. .

This is what stuck out to me msot in your post, it was long so I just skimmed it unfortunately. But that is not very different from here at all. The typical home in suburban Rochester (which of the Upstate metros, is the most "wealthy", Albany coming close 2nd becuse of the highly paying government jobs our taxes pay for) with 1800 sq feet, probably 20-40 years old...will have taxes of $6k at least. Granted, that same home would cost only about $150k-$200k vs probably $400k on LI; but that basically means we just constanly have a buyers market and the value of our homes BARELY keep pace with inflation and never have the rapid appreciation you have had (and will likely have again at some point). I love this area and after 13 years in the south will likely never leave again; but I know when things just aren't right...and they are more "not right" in upstate NY than LI.

[watamensch]

Here's the REAL problem. The same Dopes who run NY State would run LI State. What happened to Spitzer was awful (I don't what to go there) but the public knew more about where he went, what he spent, what her name was and where he lived then about ANYTHING going on in the state!

The same people will live in Long Island State as do in New York State... who, like others in the country know more about what famous person just got a boob job or which star is "messing around" with which other star.

They know more about the contestants of American Idol, including the songs they've sung, and personal details then they know about Clinton, McCain or Obama. More votes are cast every week for American Idol then for President, Governor, State legislative office or any local election.

I am not dumping on New Yorkers, this is true across the country. WE GET WHAT WE DESERVE! WAKE UP, try watching FoxNews, MSNBC or CNN for a night instead of the junk that's on TV. Better yet, turn off the boob-tube and read a newspaper!

Just venting, back to normal mode now.