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KB, I am sure you find many, many more issues with newer construction than with older; of this I have no doubt. What I was pointing out was that while most new construction is pure crap, there are still some older development homes with similar such serious issues.
You brought up a great and very important point about people foregoing inspections on new construction, because they assume that being brand new, following code, and passing town inspection is a final seal of approval. Honestly, I have to admit that I probably would have assumed the same thing, were I in the position of buying a newly constructed house.
I am very glad you brought our attention to this issue. You just may be saving a lot of people out there much heartache and money.
Homes issues really go back to Levitt homes. Older homes are better constructed but poorly sealed and insulated.
IMO. homes but in the 1960's and 1970's have real issues in quality and materials.
Funny, quality has little to do with the value of the home! Where its located really drives the price.
Gotta keep in mind that most people move every 7 years. I for one LOVE McMansions and woud buy one if I could afford it.
Good grief! I would hate to have to box up all of the stuff I've accumulated in order to move every 7 years.
I guess I'm lucky in that I am happy where I am and can afford to remain here. My neighbors are sweet, my community lovely, and I can't picture anywhere on LI I would rather be. (OK, other than an unattainable mansion on the beach.) My house is big enough for the 4 of us, but won't be too big when the nest is empty.
Considering the fortune they are still asking for newly constructed McMansions, are you really better off buying one? I do not think so. Look at the people who they use to build new houses, often non-union, unskilled "day laborers", many of whom are here illegally. The construction is often shoddy, and in some cases downright dangerous, as some folks in a Scarsdale neighborhood found out today MyFox New York | Scarsdale House Explosion (http://www.myfoxny.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=6212364&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.1.1 - broken link)
I would rather buy a home that is older that was built by quality American labor. This is something homebuyers should think about. Renters too. The newly constructed Archstone apartment complex in Westbury had to close because the builders didn't seal up the roofs and pipes and mold was growing, again another "quality" job done by illegals, I know because I saw them working there, and the big "rat" was out in front, a protest by unions of the use of non-union labor on construction projects.
First conclusion people reach is that it must be the fault of illegals. Hey maybe the crash of the housing market, the collapse of the financial markets and maybe even the holocaust was their fault too. The problem is people like youself. The "regular" Americans like yourself who mysteriously have a sense of superiority but more times than not are uneducated and lazy. That is why you fault immigrants. They are moving in on your territory. Only difference is that they have an excuse. They just came here from poverty and unfortunate circumstances. Many times They represent the most underprivileged and uneducated segments of their native societies. That does'nt mean that they like all immigrants of the past will not improve their lot in generations to come. Lower class Americans (the ones who complain the most) have no excuse, just their stupidity. Its much easier to look outwards than inwards.
Ten years ago we moved out of 80 year old house and into a year old house. In short, NO - new houses are not better. I spent the first few years replacing all the cheap stuff the builder used and the house has very little "character". Yes I'm trying to add that, but I didn't have to do much with the other house. Mechanically, older houses can be tough. But cosmetically the older house wins. When we finished the floors they looked better than the floors in my dad's brand new house and it turns out crown molding is so much more expensive to install than I thought.
First conclusion people reach is that it must be the fault of illegals. Hey maybe the crash of the housing market, the collapse of the financial markets and maybe even the holocaust was their fault too. The problem is people like youself. The "regular" Americans like yourself who mysteriously have a sense of superiority but more times than not are uneducated and lazy. That is why you fault immigrants. They are moving in on your territory. Only difference is that they have an excuse. They just came here from poverty and unfortunate circumstances. Many times They represent the most underprivileged and uneducated segments of their native societies. That does'nt mean that they like all immigrants of the past will not improve their lot in generations to come. Lower class Americans (the ones who complain the most) have no excuse, just their stupidity. Its much easier to look outwards than inwards.
yah right on....question is where would this country be without the "illegals" that people complain about so much....all of the illegals too, those who came in the 1770's, 1800,s 1850's, 1900s, 1970s, and yes....the 1980's and 1990'-today. People just like to blame all their misfortunes on the minority. Meanwhile it is the Majortity who is making all the decisions for this country and F'ing it up beyond belief. Immigrants of all classes provide goods and services that add value to the coutry....people should educate themselves and relearn american history. This country was built by immigrants and there is real value in that. It is not their fault that this country became competively INEPT during the 60's and 70's because people thought it was ok to just sit around and milk the system while sitting at home smoking dope and adding no value....There is a bigger problem at hand and the sense of 'entitlement' for the average american citizen is a real issue.
new homes have better mechanicals. standards of comfort and our electric needs have changed over the years and new houses come pre-fitted for a tv on every wall, and ten toasters in every room. new houses also have better insulation. the thinking today is to "seal the house." the thinking of yesterday was "let the house breath." incidently, if you do like a house to breath, older houses are typically built to take maximum advantage of natural ventilation. open a double-hung (top and bottom) window in every room in a house built before say 1940 and feel the air circulation. do that in a house of today. that is not a statement of build quality per se, but it was very important back then for a house to be comfortable in the summer.
so let's talk build quality. old houses win every time. consider what was available back then. start with the structural wood, the bones of most american houses. in 1910, that wood was usually old-growth pine. old-growth pine was alive and growing for a while time to develop heartwood (this was the dense wood in the center of the tree). growth rings were fairly compact and the wood strong. today's pine is grown with speed in mind, has no heartwood, and is more soft and pliable. the next step of the modern home is to design the house to use the least amount of that cheap pine possible. rather than pay for the wood, the national home building company pays for an engineer to figure out how to use the least amount of material but still obtain a reasonably sound product - er, home - that will pass building codes. considering this and that a 2 x 4 actually used to be 2 inches by 4 inches, an old house may be built with 50% more wood than today's home, and that wood that was used was of a much higher quality.
what else is a home made from? how about subfloor. you know, the plywood floor beneath your carpet padding or hardwood floor. in an old house, that subfloor will be solid 4-8" planks of high quality heart or old growth pine. today it is plywood or even worse - MDF - compressed sawdust.
how about walls? an old house will have 1 1/2 plaster walls. it took a real crafstman to produce these walls. the finished product has insulatory properties, reduces sound transfer and is, simply put, solid. today our walls are built in china, shipped across the ocean, and slapped up by someone as fast as possible. they are more or less hollow and can be punctured with a kitchen knife. the trouble is of course that it would cost a fortune to install plaster walls in today's homes and that few people are around that even have the skill to do it. it just isn't practical.
regarding interior detailing and finish, again there is no comparison. the old-growth hardwood trim in an old home is literally not available at any price today. the trees aren't there any more and the mills don't even cut wood the same way. doors used to be real, solid, hardwood. they typically still are in good shape after a hundred years - though often they need many coats of paint removed. windows were also made from old-growth hardwood. old windows were made to be repaired, not replaced. a well-serviced window from an old house can last literally hundreds of years.
the building philosophy is just different today. the housing industry is huge. everything has been "value engineered" to death. try to get even solid softwood trim from a builder today. some don't even offer it. try to get solid wood doors. price out decent trim around every window and door. that nice new hardwood floor is small segments of hardwood pieced together like a puzzle, designed in such a way as to make use of even the smallest scraps of lumber and to fit into boxes of a certain size so that it can be efficiently loaded onto a truck and delivered to lumber liquidaters. hell, i don't think i've even seen a structural brick house built in the last ten or fifteen years. what passes for brick today is merely a facade that in forty years will be cheaper to rip off and replace than to actually repoint.
it used to be different. it was even different 20 years ago. most homes were built by local guys with a local reputation to keep up. they cared deeply about quality and community. every one of the five or six houses a year that builder put out had to pass the walk-throughs from the owner of the company. this was on top of the fact that materials were better and what we today call "overbuilding" was then standard industry practice.
yikes, who got me started on this. what am i even doing in the long island forum? would a mod consider this topic for the house forum?
Thats why I skipped looking at a lot of homes, all built after 2000. Seems like they would just machinegun out as many homes as they could. I don't mind having tested engineered products, but "cheap" is another story. I hate cheap stuff. I learned long ago that you get what you pay for, and if you buy junk, you end up fixing or rebuying it again after it breaks down on you.
Thats why I skipped looking at a lot of homes, all built after 2000. Seems like they would just machinegun out as many homes as they could. I don't mind having tested engineered products, but "cheap" is another story. I hate cheap stuff. I learned long ago that you get what you pay for, and if you buy junk, you end up fixing or rebuying it again after it breaks down on you.
i personally like pre war housing, but even i see a substantial decline in quality since 2000. there remain a few exceptions, mostly found in small semi-rural towns with established hometown builders.
I actually prefer homes in the early 90's just after the housing bust. Houses were made with electronics in mind, but still have decent quality manufactering and materials. Short of having the time and money to completely gut one of those pre-war homes I can't see myself moving into one.
new homes have better mechanicals. standards of comfort and our electric needs have changed over the years and new houses come pre-fitted for a tv on every wall, and ten toasters in every room. new houses also have better insulation. the thinking today is to "seal the house." the thinking of yesterday was "let the house breath." incidently, if you do like a house to breath, older houses are typically built to take maximum advantage of natural ventilation. open a double-hung (top and bottom) window in every room in a house built before say 1940 and feel the air circulation. do that in a house of today. that is not a statement of build quality per se, but it was very important back then for a house to be comfortable in the summer.
so let's talk build quality. old houses win every time. consider what was available back then. start with the structural wood, the bones of most american houses. in 1910, that wood was usually old-growth pine. old-growth pine was alive and growing for a while time to develop heartwood (this was the dense wood in the center of the tree). growth rings were fairly compact and the wood strong. today's pine is grown with speed in mind, has no heartwood, and is more soft and pliable. the next step of the modern home is to design the house to use the least amount of that cheap pine possible. rather than pay for the wood, the national home building company pays for an engineer to figure out how to use the least amount of material but still obtain a reasonably sound product - er, home - that will pass building codes. considering this and that a 2 x 4 actually used to be 2 inches by 4 inches, an old house may be built with 50% more wood than today's home, and that wood that was used was of a much higher quality.
what else is a home made from? how about subfloor. you know, the plywood floor beneath your carpet padding or hardwood floor. in an old house, that subfloor will be solid 4-8" planks of high quality heart or old growth pine. today it is plywood or even worse - MDF - compressed sawdust.
how about walls? an old house will have 1 1/2 plaster walls. it took a real crafstman to produce these walls. the finished product has insulatory properties, reduces sound transfer and is, simply put, solid. today our walls are built in china, shipped across the ocean, and slapped up by someone as fast as possible. they are more or less hollow and can be punctured with a kitchen knife. the trouble is of course that it would cost a fortune to install plaster walls in today's homes and that few people are around that even have the skill to do it. it just isn't practical.
regarding interior detailing and finish, again there is no comparison. the old-growth hardwood trim in an old home is literally not available at any price today. the trees aren't there any more and the mills don't even cut wood the same way. doors used to be real, solid, hardwood. they typically still are in good shape after a hundred years - though often they need many coats of paint removed. windows were also made from old-growth hardwood. old windows were made to be repaired, not replaced. a well-serviced window from an old house can last literally hundreds of years.
the building philosophy is just different today. the housing industry is huge. everything has been "value engineered" to death. try to get even solid softwood trim from a builder today. some don't even offer it. try to get solid wood doors. price out decent trim around every window and door. that nice new hardwood floor is small segments of hardwood pieced together like a puzzle, designed in such a way as to make use of even the smallest scraps of lumber and to fit into boxes of a certain size so that it can be efficiently loaded onto a truck and delivered to lumber liquidaters. hell, i don't think i've even seen a structural brick house built in the last ten or fifteen years. what passes for brick today is merely a facade that in forty years will be cheaper to rip off and replace than to actually repoint.
it used to be different. it was even different 20 years ago. most homes were built by local guys with a local reputation to keep up. they cared deeply about quality and community. every one of the five or six houses a year that builder put out had to pass the walk-throughs from the owner of the company. this was on top of the fact that materials were better and what we today call "overbuilding" was then standard industry practice.
yikes, who got me started on this. what am i even doing in the long island forum? would a mod consider this topic for the house forum?
I know you're not usually on the LI boards. But if you had to pick your poison, which of the big builders (Lennar, KBH, Toll Bros, DrHorton, Pulte, etc..) would you say is the overall best?
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