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Bee, do you really think that teachers never take any work home? Most teachers I know have plenty of work to take home. And you don't walk into school in September having had a 2 month vacation; most teachers will spend part of that time planning. Ditto vacation time. The time spent teaching is only a fraction of the time actually spent. When I was in the UK someone did a study of how many hours teachers actually worked. It was close to 60 hours a week. (UK has a 190 day school year, FWIW.)
In any case, it's pointless to complain about teachers not working enough days. They don't work more because we don't want our kids in school more. It's true that the union leaders whine when asked to work more, but the fact is that we've never actually said "gee, maybe our kids shouldn't have 12 weeks off in the summer!"
Whether private or public, it impacts all of our wallets. It seems a little ridiculous to me that you have no problem with a plumber making 200,000 but you get crazy when a cop makes 100,000. If that's the going rate for plumbers, then the going rate for cops is going to be high, too. It's all relative. You can't single out a profession and criticize its compensation without looking at the other professions in the same area. That's especially true in Long Island.
You can't compare the private with the public employees. Police, Fire, Teachers, Civil Servants, etc., have unions and contracts which spell out all the details.
The plumber making $200K a year (in a private business) has none of that. He has to work his tush off, go on countless estimates and bid against other plumbers. If his bid is too high, the homeowner passes him by. If we feel a cop, teacher or fireman makes too much -- we don't have that option.
The plumber is paying his own health insurance (if he can afford it) putting his own money into retirement, and time off is unpaid. If the plumber wants to take a week off, he has to leave time in his schedule and hope to heck that there aren't any emergencies. He can be sitting down at night watching CSI and get a phone call from a frantic client -- the pipe burst! When the cop, teacher and fireman are home during their off time, there aren't many emergencies that they can get called in for. MY dad is a ret NYPD and the ONLY time (in 25 years) he was called in for an emergency was the blackouts in 1977... How many plumbers get that lucky?
What happens when the Cop, Fireman or teacher gets hurt on the job? What happens when the plumber gets hurt on the job? The cop, fireman & teacher continue to receive pay from the job. The plumber has to call his clients and say, I am injured, I can't work at this time. He loses jobs, pay and then has the privilege of fighting the workers comp system to get some sort of money. That is, if he even carried workers comp on himself.
The plumber runs the risk of the homeowner stiffing him out of his money. The cop, fireman and teacher don't have that concern.
I am not saying anyone is any better or worse than the other. I only state that the unionized public employees are much better protected and have benefits that many of the privately employed individuals do not. That written, it is difficult to compare real life $100K teachers and PD with a hypothetical $200K plumber.
Bee, do you really think that teachers never take any work home? Most teachers I know have plenty of work to take home. And you don't walk into school in September having had a 2 month vacation; most teachers will spend part of that time planning. Ditto vacation time. The time spent teaching is only a fraction of the time actually spent. When I was in the UK someone did a study of how many hours teachers actually worked. It was close to 60 hours a week. (UK has a 190 day school year, FWIW.)
In any case, it's pointless to complain about teachers not working enough days. They don't work more because we don't want our kids in school more. It's true that the union leaders whine when asked to work more, but the fact is that we've never actually said "gee, maybe our kids shouldn't have 12 weeks off in the summer!"
I never stated teachers don't take work home; however they aren't the only ones. This is not unique to the teaching profession. There are plenty of families where a spouse is not present due to late meetings -- they aren't all teachers.
I didn't complain about the lack of calendar days either. I did point out that it's a good perk that both teachers young and old can use to their benefit, whether fiduciary, travel wise, or advancing their degrees to make even more money.
to wit:
I know 2 NYC school teachers (now retired) who spent the better part of their summers in Europe.
The TVCSD teacher who lived down the street from me spent her summers out west.
The Smithtown teacher we worked for spent his summer in Israel one year, Europe another, and Asia prior to that.
Another NYC teacher who lives locally spends his time traveling the USA during his summers.
My niece teaches in Nassau and uses the summer to make more money in a part time job.
I wouldn't mind the children having a longer school year at all. But would the teachers mind working the 51 more days at the same rate of pay they currently receive?
There are lots of professions paid by taxpayers money yet cops and teachers are the ones most often discussed, as if its these salaries alone that make taxes so high. Go ahead and lower the salaries and then see what happens to property values when public safety and school districts are affected.
On tenure, once again, all tenure does is protect teachers from being fired without cause - you can still fire teachers WITH CAUSE such as incompetence. It just has to be documented.
School taxes make up a significant portion of the tax bill, which would explain why people zero in on the teachers. Let's be honest.
Yes, documentation is needed to fire a teacher with cause. Just like the cops have the blue wall of silence, the teachers cover their own backs, too.
School taxes make up a significant portion of the tax bill, which would explain why people zero in on the teachers. Let's be honest.
Yes, documentation is needed to fire a teacher with cause. Just like the cops have the blue wall of silence, the teachers cover their own backs, too.
I teach in NYC not Long Island so its a different tax situation here although everywhere people complain about teachers' salaries. Still, I bet that there are plenty of places where your tax money is being squandered outside of teachers' salaries.
If you have issues with teachers not being fired with cause then take it up with the administration - their salaries are a lot higher than your teachers, and if they're not doing their job then start there.
Teachers are not the only job that gets paid a yearly salary that doesn't correspond to the usual 40 hour work week - examples include nurses, firemen, etc. I know how hard I work so I feel no need to justify that here.
That said, I, for one, would take a pay cut if it meant that my students had some actual consequences to face for their actions. Bring back detention, in-school suspension, expulsion, and my job would be a lot easier. But since most parents aren't willing to have that, then yes, I want to paid for the difficulty of this job. That's the reason some teachers prefer to work in private school in spite of its lower pay.
Whether private or public, it impacts all of our wallets. It seems a little ridiculous to me that you have no problem with a plumber making 200,000 but you get crazy when a cop makes 100,000. If that's the going rate for plumbers, then the going rate for cops is going to be high, too. It's all relative. You can't single out a profession and criticize its compensation without looking at the other professions in the same area. That's especially true in Long Island.
Just as the other poster pointed out... the only plumbers that make 200k are those who own their own businesses and take on significant fiduciary risk. In addition, that cop making 100 (which the avg, according to Suozzi in 2007 was 125k by the way) makes a lot more of that with the ability to work overtime that may other people with a salary in the 6 figures are unable to do. Now add up all the other benefits the cop gets, between healthcare for him and his wife, free pension (which is worth 20% of the salary), and the banking of vacation and sick days to be paid out upon retirement. No one complains about the cop making 100K. Its those scamming the system, increasing their pay the last 3 years to pad their pension, and receiving a quarter of a million to a half a million dollar windfall upon retirement, in addition to medical and the pension. Really officer, when is enough going to be enough?
Edit: I'm sorry I honed in on the police in a thread about teachers but I was responding to the cop. I do not believe this applies to teachers though, given the level of education and proficiency they must have. Although I do feel the tenure system is garbage. Good teachers have no reason to fear accountability, tenure is only a tool for the crappy teachers.
Last edited by I have a voice; 08-15-2008 at 08:36 PM..
Reason: apology for going off topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhBeeHave School taxes make up a significant portion of the tax bill, which would explain why people zero in on the teachers. Let's be honest.
Yes, documentation is needed to fire a teacher with cause. Just like the cops have the blue wall of silence, the teachers cover their own backs, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenBo
I teach in NYC not Long Island so its a different tax situation here although everywhere people complain about teachers' salaries. Still, I bet that there are plenty of places where your tax money is being squandered outside of teachers' salaries.
If you have issues with teachers not being fired with cause then take it up with the administration - their salaries are a lot higher than your teachers, and if they're not doing their job then start there.
Teachers are not the only job that gets paid a yearly salary that doesn't correspond to the usual 40 hour work week - examples include nurses, firemen, etc. I know how hard I work so I feel no need to justify that here.
That said, I, for one, would take a pay cut if it meant that my students had some actual consequences to face for their actions. Bring back detention, in-school suspension, expulsion, and my job would be a lot easier. But since most parents aren't willing to have that, then yes, I want to paid for the difficulty of this job. That's the reason some teachers prefer to work in private school in spite of its lower pay.
Yes, there are places where in addition to teacher's salaries people feel tax money is being squandered. And yes, administrators are a chunk of change, too. When you put the two together, the sum becomes more egregious to some and completely unpalatable to others.
However, as I've written in the previous post, school taxes make up a significant portion of the tax bill. In my case, they account for close to 65% (2/3) of my total tax bill. I own a business and realize that salaries are only a portion of the operating cost of the budget, but the general populace sees a huge tax bill and teachers receiving raises the likes of which many people haven't seen in a few years. They associate your salaries directly with their taxes, despite the fact that salaries, benefits and retirement are only a portion in addition to maintenance, custodial, grounds, administrators, utilities, insurance, debt service, etc.
I try to understand the teachers' point of view, but when they continue to receive and those of us paying are seeing our taxes rise, our health insurance premiums go up (I pay $1,400 per month) and our salaries remain unchanged, people do start to get to upset. I would hope that the teachers who are reading this would just try to understand this. I'm not persecuting anyone for their career choice, but I am speaking for a lot of people out there who are being stretched thin.
More and more people are leaving LI and the reason: COL & taxes. Do I say teachers are solely to blame? NO. We all are aware of all the special districts and how it all adds up, which doesn't help matters either.
Talk to administration: We attend BOE meetings, hand in cards ahead of time (when it's a heated topic with a huge turn out) and make our case. I have been to meetings were scores of parents have taken their 2-3 mins at the podium, pleading their case, sharing their views, offering alternatives; they've been followed by more like-minded parents. The school board will still turn and vote the opposite, anyway.
I am one of the rare parents who doesn't run to the school and blame the teacher when 'Petunia' doesn't do well, or has a problem. I agree that there is laxity in discipline both in the home and in the school. Social promotion needs to end, too. I would sooner see teachers doing their job than having to police unruly or disruptive students.
Mind you, I am not saying you have it easy. You are working for your money. I am writing what I read, hear and see when I am out and about, from the 'layperson' standpoint.
Location: Concrete jungle where dreams are made of.
8,900 posts, read 15,880,373 times
Reputation: 1819
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhBeeHave
HEY! I was a Kindergartner in the South Bronx. I resemble that remark! (OK, it was a long time ago, but I really was!)
My cousin's daughter is teaching in the Bronx -- this was her first year.
LOL well then you know what I mean
Cool about your cousin's daughter. I just finished my first year too
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