As a taxpayer....would you prefer to trim back on Education or Law Enforcement? (credit, home)

[I have a voice]

Originally Posted by OhBeeHave

Neither one of us is going to change the other's opinion, but I will answer your questions.

1) As a person who could have been assaulted, yes. I was not and and am not the only female who has been placed in that position. When my SIL was murdered, the police responded and sought out her killer. When my HS classmate and her coworker were abducted from their job and were gang raped by a group of men, who dumped them naked on a street corner, the police were there to help them. When my neighbor's son wandered off, the police looked for him. When my husband was in an MVA, the police responded. When I received a speeding ticket...well I wasn't thrilled, but I broke the law and I paid.

So yes, based on my experience, as well as the COL on LI, the SCPD should be well paid. Bear in mind that I also agreed with several of the options you suggested as to where cut backs could be made without completely cutting salaries. I am not suggesting they make as much as a heart surgeon, or a wall street titan.

2) I feel the NYPD, armed forces, CO, etc, should receive a better living wage as well. Yes, certain departments got a leg up on the salary scale with the help of less than honest pols. We can't take that back. The Taylor law was used to their benefit and the Taylor law can work well for the teachers union members.

In general -- not specific to NCPD or SCPD:
Not everyone can be a PO and not everyone wants to be a PO. Psychologically, it can take it's toll. Police have a high rate of suicide. Dealing with murders, rapes, suicides, molested children, murdered children is not something any of us non POs do. Knocking on the door to a house at 2AM to tell them their loved one has been killed in an accident isn't something anyone relishes. A good PO has to have the ability to think quickly when assessing a situation, the character of the person he is engaging, the ability to be a psychologist, a sounding board, a mediator and to remain emotionally uninvolved in the process. Their suicide rate is greater than that of non POs: Police Suicide - Alarming Problem

"[SIZE=3]Capt. Gus Carre, the commanding officer at EAP, did say stress among police officers is not unusual. "It's a difficult job made more difficult by the individuals that officers must deal with on a daily basis."[/SIZE] [SIZE=3] Many police officers see a steady diet of the grim underside of life that most people rarely see.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE][SIZE=3] They are usually first at the scene when babies are killed, when wives are battered, when addicts die of an overdose or when accidents kill or maim citizens. It all takes its toll on even the most hard-nosed officers."[/SIZE]

So if the police compensation were cut to reflect the market and the area they live and not a warped Taylor Law, would the police NOT respond to those situations? The police do all of that because it is their job. It is what they are paid to do. Again, no one is saying pay them minimum wage, but a 30% cut in compensation would still given them an excellent wage for the police. And they would still do their jobs.

I admit there are aspects to police jobs that are rough. However they signed up for these jobs, no one put a gun to their head. They deserve a fair wage and right now their compensation is UNFAIR for us taxpayers.

[dman72]

Originally Posted by OhBeeHave

I am trying to be objective.

Sachem, according to you, has 1,200 teachers serving 15,500 students (that figure from longislandschools.com)

SCPD has 2,500 officers (your number) serving 1,469,715 citizens plus anyone else who is in their jurisdiction on a given day.

Sachem's 2008/2009 budget is $279,401,007.00 according to longislandschools.com

SCPD district budget is:
$87,059,653.00 (from Sales tax revenue -- see page 97) http://www.co.suffolk.ny.us/legis/br...0budget%20.pdf
plus $439,543,186.00 = $526,602,839.00 (From property tax, county portion same .pdf)

I see (roughly) twice as many officers in SCPD as opposed to teachers in Sachem.
I see the budget for the SCPD is roughly twice that of Sachem
I see a teacher to student ratio of 1:13
I see an officer to civilian ration of 1:588

The police budget allows not only for operating and maintaining precincts but for such items as vehicles, gas, maintenance for the cars, etc., things the teachers do not use in the classroom. Apples for the teachers, Oranges for the SCPD

Let me ask you this:

When you had problems with the 'bikers' in RP, who did you call? The superintendent of schools or your local precinct?

And who taught me trigonometry, physics, etc, hands on for 7 hours per day for 13 years? They were doing their jobs, not doing me a favor, but I appreciate it. At the time, teachers weren't doing very well on LI.

The law didn't allow my friends and I to take baseball bats and beat the guy into an inch of his life..believe me, we wanted to and planned to if he ever came in again. That's why the police are there. They handled it well, IMO. They talked to him and asked us if we want to press charges, and we said no. They aren't doing us a favor, they were doing what they are paid to do, but I appreciate it. Could they have done as well making $80k instead of 125K? Most likely the same people applying for those positions would continue to do so if compensation went down 10-20%. And..you know it. It wouldn't be a lottery ticket, just a good job.

[OhBeeHave]

Originally Posted by dman72

And who taught me trigonometry, physics, etc, hands on for 7 hours per day for 13 years? They were doing their jobs, not doing me a favor, but I appreciate it. At the time, teachers weren't doing very well on LI.

The law didn't allow my friends and I to take baseball bats and beat the guy into an inch of his life..believe me, we wanted to and planned to if he ever came in again. That's why the police are there. They handled it well, IMO. They talked to him and asked us if we want to press charges, and we said no. They aren't doing us a favor, they were doing what they are paid to do, but I appreciate it. Could they have done as well making $80k instead of 125K? Most likely the same people applying for those positions would continue to do so if compensation went down 10-20%. And..you know it. It wouldn't be a lottery ticket, just a good job.

Hands up -- how many of us are using the trig and physics that we may or may not have taken in HS? (HS -- physics one period, plus one period for lab; trig -- one period. Both courses take one year start to finish.) I, for one, am not -- despite taking both courses and calculus as well. (I loathed it and couldn't wait for the year to end.)

What about parents who home school their children? They are learning everything their public school teacher is presenting to a classroom of students. The parent homeschooling does have to be bright and adhere to a strict guideline set forth by the state's DOE, but the children are learning without the benefit of a salaried teacher. Education is taking place.

When the incident occurred, would you have rather have seen an auxiliary cop with no weapon show up at the door or did the sidearm in the holster of the paid PO help the balance? In all likelihood the angry, drunken biker was probably armed. There was potential for a scene which could have gone bad fast.

The police officer was able to control the potential mele; he was able to prevent a situation from turning violent without the use of force. Why couldn't you and your friends do the same without the cop? You're law abiding citizens after all. Emotion and adrenaline kicked in and the group's first thought was defending itself, which is perfectly normal given the circumstances. The police officer was called in in order to protect your rights and to bring about a peaceful resolution. That is a part of his job. If things didn't go smoothly, he could have ended up injured or worse -- which is also a part of his job.

Both the Education and Law Enforcement can stand some cuts, but I feel that education has more room for cuts -- or at least the opportunity to reduce costs by consolidating certain functions with other local districts.

[OhBeeHave]

Originally Posted by I have a voice

So if the police compensation were cut to reflect the market and the area they live and not a warped Taylor Law, would the police NOT respond to those situations? The police do all of that because it is their job. It is what they are paid to do. Again, no one is saying pay them minimum wage, but a 30% cut in compensation would still given them an excellent wage for the police. And they would still do their jobs.

I admit there are aspects to police jobs that are rough. However they signed up for these jobs, no one put a gun to their head. They deserve a fair wage and right now their compensation is UNFAIR for us taxpayers.

We both know that the PD is going to respond whether or not they have a contract. When I was in HS and our teachers were between contracts they all wore protest buttons, slowed down the lessons and were not the professionals they were when they had a favorable contract. The police are not going to sit on their hands if there is a crime.

What if we could all place a perceived value on each and every profession. Would accountants who could find wicked loopholes make more? Would the people who pick up your trash make less because there's no apparent skill involved?

There are many people out there who believe that because a certain profession doesn't require X years of college, that they shouldn't be paid well. But when something goes wrong and a college degree can't fix it, they contact those of us who can. BMW starts rough? Cesspool backed up? Need a new kitchen? Need an electrical upgrade? Need the gas service moved? Any and all services are most valuable to a person when they are needed. As soon as they are relegated to the back burner, their value diminishes.

Then there are people out there who feel that their college degree entitles them to X luxuries and that the person who plumbs their pipes, upgrades the electrical service or repairs the BMW shouldn't be able to have the same X luxuries.

The police fall somewhere inside of this. They are civil servants, minimal college at best and often have to deal with the dregs of society. The degreed professional does not want to think that the civil servant might have some of the same things he has.

On the flip side, there are business people who tack on what I call the N of & S of surcharge. As soon as they hear someone is from an area they deem wealthy, they charge more. If you're in the Moorings, in Old Field, in Bar Harbor or Belle Terre -- kaching, you're getting slammed.

As I wrote in my post before this, both Education and Law Enforcement can stand some trimming, it's just that Education has more avenues to explore before salaries and bennies are impacted.

[dman72]

Originally Posted by OhBeeHave

Hands up -- how many of us are using the trig and physics that we may or may not have taken in HS? (HS -- physics one period, plus one period for lab; trig -- one period. Both courses take one year start to finish.) I, for one, am not -- despite taking both courses and calculus as well. (I loathed it and couldn't wait for the year to end.)

What about parents who home school their children? They are learning everything their public school teacher is presenting to a classroom of students. The parent homeschooling does have to be bright and adhere to a strict guideline set forth by the state's DOE, but the children are learning without the benefit of a salaried teacher. Education is taking place.

When the incident occurred, would you have rather have seen an auxiliary cop with no weapon show up at the door or did the sidearm in the holster of the paid PO help the balance? In all likelihood the angry, drunken biker was probably armed. There was potential for a scene which could have gone bad fast.

The police officer was able to control the potential mele; he was able to prevent a situation from turning violent without the use of force. Why couldn't you and your friends do the same without the cop? You're law abiding citizens after all. Emotion and adrenaline kicked in and the group's first thought was defending itself, which is perfectly normal given the circumstances. The police officer was called in in order to protect your rights and to bring about a peaceful resolution. That is a part of his job. If things didn't go smoothly, he could have ended up injured or worse -- which is also a part of his job.

Both the Education and Law Enforcement can stand some cuts, but I feel that education has more room for cuts -- or at least the opportunity to reduce costs by consolidating certain functions with other local districts.

How many people on LI home school? Where do you get this stuff?

The country needs more engineers..it doesn't need more people telling their kids that they don't need math because they made a killing when they scored their SCPD lottery ticket. The education you get in school sets the basis for most people who go to college, despite what landscapers and cops try to tell everyone.

LI has a really high level of anti-education types who maybe did well in landscaping or owning a pizzeria..or a garbage carting company.. or winning the SCPD lottery. As a nation, we need people who can do more than that to remain strong. That is why we have public education. There's nothing wrong with working class jobs paying a decent wage, but when people who pull 125K with HS diplomas because of union political pull come on boards and tell people that education should be cut..something is seriously wrong.

I don't understand your point with the auxilliary cop.

As for the incident, again I ask you to answer the simple question: would the job have been done the same way by someone making 80K as opposed to 125K? You know that you can't honestly say otherwise. The cop did a fine job. He carries a gun maybe because in this area, I don't have a right to.

[dman72]

Originally Posted by OhBeeHave

We both know that the PD is going to respond whether or not they have a contract. When I was in HS and our teachers were between contracts they all wore protest buttons, slowed down the lessons and were not the professionals they were when they had a favorable contract. The police are not going to sit on their hands if there is a crime.

What if we could all place a perceived value on each and every profession. Would accountants who could find wicked loopholes make more? Would the people who pick up your trash make less because there's no apparent skill involved?

There are many people out there who believe that because a certain profession doesn't require X years of college, that they shouldn't be paid well. But when something goes wrong and a college degree can't fix it, they contact those of us who can. BMW starts rough? Cesspool backed up? Need a new kitchen? Need an electrical upgrade? Need the gas service moved? Any and all services are most valuable to a person when they are needed. As soon as they are relegated to the back burner, their value diminishes.

Then there are people out there who feel that their college degree entitles them to X luxuries and that the person who plumbs their pipes, upgrades the electrical service or repairs the BMW shouldn't be able to have the same X luxuries.

The police fall somewhere inside of this. They are civil servants, minimal college at best and often have to deal with the dregs of society. The degreed professional does not want to think that the civil servant might have some of the same things he has.

On the flip side, there are business people who tack on what I call the N of & S of surcharge. As soon as they hear someone is from an area they deem wealthy, they charge more. If you're in the Moorings, in Old Field, in Bar Harbor or Belle Terre -- kaching, you're getting slammed.

As I wrote in my post before this, both Education and Law Enforcement can stand some trimming, it's just that Education has more avenues to explore before salaries and bennies are impacted.

So Long Island Cops who make huge money with no education are actually working class heroes!! Problem is, the money is coming form the public.

I guess that many people are subject to cognitive dissonance to justify the current situation. I can't blame you..I guess if I was screwing over taxpayers and getting away with it, I'd try to find some way to defend it too..no matter how convoluted or nonsensical my arguments might be.

[OhBeeHave]

Originally Posted by dman72

How many people on LI home school? Where do you get this stuff?

The country needs more engineers..it doesn't need more people telling their kids that they don't need math because they made a killing when they scored their SCPD lottery ticket. The education you get in school sets the basis for most people who go to college, despite what landscapers and cops try to tell everyone.

LI has a really high level of anti-education types who maybe did well in landscaping or owning a pizzeria..or a garbage carting company.. or winning the SCPD lottery. As a nation, we need people who can do more than that to remain strong. That is why we have public education. There's nothing wrong with working class jobs paying a decent wage, but when people who pull 125K with HS diplomas because of union political pull come on boards and tell people that education should be cut..something is seriously wrong.

I don't understand your point with the auxilliary cop.

As for the incident, again I ask you to answer the simple question: would the job have been done the same way by someone making 80K as opposed to 125K? You know that you can't honestly say otherwise. The cop did a fine job. He carries a gun maybe because in this area, I don't have a right to.

The country needs businesses to remain here to support engineers and planners. And who is telling their kids they do not need math? While I might have loathed calc in HS, I stuck with it. My oldest is doing the same and is interested in following his grandfather -- who was an engineer for Grumman. It would be great if Grumman still existed as it once was. But too many corporations have multi-million dollar fat cats with golden parachutes. Too many operations end up outsourced.

Both my husband and I have been to college. I am credits shy of a degree -- I switched majors, ended up having to take more courses and then wound up with a business that was taking off so rapidly that I had to chose between the two. As an adult with children, keeping the roof over the head and little bellies full won out.

Where do you get the information that people tell their children not to take math and to become a cop? What mother wants her child to not go to college? What mother wants her child to take on a hazardous career as opposed to wearing a white collar?

There is a large homeschooling movement within the US and there are plenty of homeschoolers on LI. Perhaps as a mother who is in contact with other mothers, I see more of this than someone like you with a degree.

Where are all these 'anti-education' types? Certainly not in my community. The local children are oriented early on to do well and set on track for college. The lions share of the parents both have college degrees. My landscaper's son works for him in the summer. Why? To teach him that it's important to get a college education. Not all landscapers are as myopic and anti-education as you would brand them.

Of course either the $85K or $125K cop would have done the job. The question is: if all he is making is $85K with benefits, is he going to be the same cream of the crop as the current higher pay rate applicants are?

He won't be able to afford a house on LI as a single guy, so will he even bother staying?

It bothers you that someone without a degree might make a salary comparable to you, doesn't it? He's making more than I alone make and I have more of a college education, but I don't begrudge him his choice as long as he is doing the job we are paying him for.

[OhBeeHave]

Originally Posted by dman72

So Long Island Cops who make huge money with no education are actually working class heroes!! Problem is, the money is coming form the public.

I guess that many people are subject to cognitive dissonance to justify the current situation. I can't blame you..I guess if I was screwing over taxpayers and getting away with it, I'd try to find some way to defend it too..no matter how convoluted or nonsensical my arguments might be.

If cops aren't heroes in a sense, what are they? Do you feel they are the bad guys? Face it, they got a good deal -- probably better than you, better than me.

I have nothing to gain defending the PD. I am not a cop. I am not married to a cop. I have no cop siblings. I have no cop in laws. I have no SCPD cop friends. I have no affiliation from which I can benefit with any PD on the planet.

[Crookhaven]

Originally Posted by OhBeeHave

The country needs businesses to remain here to support engineers and planners. And who is telling their kids they do not need math? While I might have loathed calc in HS, I stuck with it. My oldest is doing the same and is interested in following his grandfather -- who was an engineer for Grumman. It would be great if Grumman still existed as it once was. But too many corporations have multi-million dollar fat cats with golden parachutes. Too many operations end up outsourced.

Both my husband and I have been to college. I am credits shy of a degree -- I switched majors, ended up having to take more courses and then wound up with a business that was taking off so rapidly that I had to chose between the two. As an adult with children, keeping the roof over the head and little bellies full won out.

Where do you get the information that people tell their children not to take math and to become a cop? What mother wants her child to not go to college? What mother wants her child to take on a hazardous career as opposed to wearing a white collar?

There is a large homeschooling movement within the US and there are plenty of homeschoolers on LI. Perhaps as a mother who is in contact with other mothers, I see more of this than someone like you with a degree.

Where are all these 'anti-education' types? Certainly not in my community. The local children are oriented early on to do well and set on track for college. The lions share of the parents both have college degrees. My landscaper's son works for him in the summer. Why? To teach him that it's important to get a college education. Not all landscapers are as myopic and anti-education as you would brand them.

Of course either the $85K or $125K cop would have done the job. The question is: if all he is making is $85K with benefits, is he going to be the same cream of the crop as the current higher pay rate applicants are?

He won't be able to afford a house on LI as a single guy, so will he even bother staying?

It bothers you that someone without a degree might make a salary comparable to you, doesn't it? He's making more than I alone make and I have more of a college education, but I don't begrudge him his choice as long as he is doing the job we are paying him for.

With all due respect, if a Cops pay is trimmed back to 85k he can always just peel his family out of the Mc Mansion and send his wife to to work like the rest of the Middle Class.

He could just also just ask any NYC Cop riding the LIRR how they manage.There seems to be no shortage of NYs finest living out here, they seem to manage just fine.In fact I just had my driveway done by a NY cop from Centereach.

If you think its tough living on Long Island for 85k
Try doing NYC on 45k.

I'm actually not surprised that many of us would rather curtail school spending in the wake of the recent scandals but I am baffled by how many of us seem to look the other way when it comes to excessive and wasteful compensation for our police.



crookhaven

[I have a voice]

Originally Posted by OhBeeHave

We both know that the PD is going to respond whether or not they have a contract. When I was in HS and our teachers were between contracts they all wore protest buttons, slowed down the lessons and were not the professionals they were when they had a favorable contract. The police are not going to sit on their hands if there is a crime.

What if we could all place a perceived value on each and every profession. Would accountants who could find wicked loopholes make more? Would the people who pick up your trash make less because there's no apparent skill involved?

There are many people out there who believe that because a certain profession doesn't require X years of college, that they shouldn't be paid well. But when something goes wrong and a college degree can't fix it, they contact those of us who can. BMW starts rough? Cesspool backed up? Need a new kitchen? Need an electrical upgrade? Need the gas service moved? Any and all services are most valuable to a person when they are needed. As soon as they are relegated to the back burner, their value diminishes.

Then there are people out there who feel that their college degree entitles them to X luxuries and that the person who plumbs their pipes, upgrades the electrical service or repairs the BMW shouldn't be able to have the same X luxuries.

The police fall somewhere inside of this. They are civil servants, minimal college at best and often have to deal with the dregs of society. The degreed professional does not want to think that the civil servant might have some of the same things he has.

On the flip side, there are business people who tack on what I call the N of & S of surcharge. As soon as they hear someone is from an area they deem wealthy, they charge more. If you're in the Moorings, in Old Field, in Bar Harbor or Belle Terre -- kaching, you're getting slammed.

As I wrote in my post before this, both Education and Law Enforcement can stand some trimming, it's just that Education has more avenues to explore before salaries and bennies are impacted.

You seen like an intelligent person, but I'm assuming you have no economics background. If you did, you would realize that the market determine who gets back what. That college education for professions is a barrier to entry, limiting the pool of qualified candidates and thus raising the compensation level given the scarcity of qualified applicants. You would also see that the profession known as policing has no barriers to entry (aside from their weeding out process, which is an artificial barrier to entry and certain things can be lifted, such as the minimum credit score, no traffic tickets, etc and you can still find good quality cops). Without barriers to entry, the pool of applicants is large and the demand for positions is large with a small supply which creates downward pressure on compensation. However, being a government entity they are protected from the market and we tax payers are the ones who suffer.