Why Long Island Sucks (New York, Hempstead: apartments, rental, mortgage)

[GCGuy]

Originally Posted by OvertaxedOnLI

I am sorry if anyone interpreted my post to mean that all of the towns containing under-$300K homes are considered to be uniformly "bad"/"depressed"/"undesireable" etc. For example, no one would say that the entire Village of Amityville fits that description, but there are certain neighborhoods within Amityville that are composed mainly of homes in this price range, which by virtue of their market value or condition (or both) are rental properties for example. And as nicknat points out, neighborhoods having a high ratio of transients to on-site homeowners are generally less desirable (a good deal of the zoning on LI was and often still is intended to encourage ownership and discourage transients/rentals). Compounding the situation is that a proportion of rentals in those communities/areas are placements by Social Services which -- like it or not, but it's simply a fact -- is often not perceived as a 'positive' by potential buyers.

I entirely agree that a well-maintained home or neighborhood is absolutely no guarantee of the character of the people who live there! But the point of my post was "current selling prices" on LI, and when buying a home most people don't care whether the seller is a sinner or a saint: They're looking at House, Location, Price, Taxes and often School District. Those things, especially Location, are what drive the market.

Right or wrong, many people do indeed factor the racial makeup of a town or neighborhood within a town into their househunting decisions. It's unfair to place the blame for this entirely on realtors. When a buyer tells a realtor "I won't consider any home in Hempstead or Roosevelt", it's not the realtor's place to talk them into looking at houses there. The argument of whether it's fair or morally reprehensible to use race, ethnicity or religion as a basis for choosing where to live, is a whole other can of worms, er, another topic!

Then there's the school district thing. Say you have a family with young children and a very tight househunting budget. To buy a home in the 200K range in one of the areas I listed, may well be the financially sensible thing to do. They may be perfectly okay with the actual neighborhood the house is in. BUT.... they are NOT okay with the quality of the school district (for whatever reason) and there is NO WAY that they want their kids to attend school in that district. If they buy the 200K home the only alternative is private school, which would do as much damage to their budget on a yearly basis as buying a house in the 300K range in another district .... and so, also realizing that the resale value of the 300K home is going to be higher because it will appeal to more buyers, they don't consider the 200K house.

Again, I certainly didn't mean to imply that all the communities I listed are uniformly "bad/undesireable" (that's why I specified "or in less desireable neighborhoods of.."). However, several of those communities DO have a much higher incidence of crime, gang problems, etc both in the schools and the community, than is the average for most of the rest of LI.

Lastly, I wasn't saying that a foreclosure is automatically in a "bad" neighborhood -- only that they can sometimes be in horrendous condition. When offered at the actual foreclosure sale a vacant or boarded-up (normally the house is boarded up immediately after the defendants are out of it) house is sold strictly "as is" (no inspection or even access to the inside of the home is allowed) and it's not uncommon for the defendants to deliberately trash the inside of the house before departing. Interior walls bashed open and copper piping ripped out to be sold for scrap metal. Fixtures literally ripped from the walls. Walls spraypainted with obscenities in every room. You name it. This can happen even with foreclosures in "good" or "very good" areas but it is more often seen in neighborhoods containing homes in the bottom tier of the market.

You were spot on the first time. No need to apologize/justify anything. PC crap is just that...crap. Call it what it is, a bad neighborhood. A bed nieghborhood is an area with higher crime, less attractive homes, and has a generally unpleasent, even dangerous feel. These are will likely have lower housing costs and poorly performing SDs. End of story.

Now, LI gets a bad rap for only having about 19% of the stock as rentals...so what? That's whats the areas great and safe. Now, with prices higher, I se it can be an issue. Something has to be worked out, but creating project-like developments is not the answer. That would ruin LI.

Furthermore, so what if white people want to live with white people? Do people complain when Chinatown develops, or when blacks WANT to live with blacks? No, that's wonderful...a cultural fantasy. Well, it's bs. People since the beginning of time wanted to live with people like themselves, and it's only now and with white people that this is a problem. Man, that irks me to no end. This insance notion that everyone needs to live together b/c diversity makes everything great is rubbish.

Sorry, these PC rants makes me nuts.

[OvertaxedOnLI]

GCGuy, thanks for the backup but I wasn't apologizing or justifying… only trying to clarify. I thought I'd originally made it clear that I wasn't claiming "all parts of all these communities are bad areas", but when nutmuffin said "You can't paint all areas with the same brush" I felt I hadn't originally got my point across well enough!

Everyone knows there are less-desireable and/or undesireable areas in almost every community. The community I live in is and always has been almost entirely (95% or more) white. There are currently slightly over 125 homes here listed on MLS ranging from a low of $326K to a high of $2,200,000 (covering an area of about 6 square miles according to City-Data). The majority of homes fall into the 450K-600K range which is an "average" house for my community. The ones at 700K and up are either waterfront or in one of the waterfront neighborhoods and of varying ages, sizes and condition; the ones for $1million and more are all waterfront homes with the exception of the delusional neighbor I mentioned previously (a realistic price for his home would be between $750K-$825, the higher end being for the mythical 'perfect buyer').

The four cheapest listings (326K, 340K, 354K and 357K; the next highest is 370K) are all within a particular three-block radius. They are all small houses (2-bedroom cottages or bungalows) on tiny (1/8 to ¼ acre) lots. The streets are narrow, there are no sidewalks and often no garage. Some homes are "kept up" by their owners but the majority are rentals; some of those rentals are Social Services placements. This neighborhood has all of the problems that nicknat described: Too many people living in the homes, cars lining the street and in front yards, noise, garbage and an unmistakable general impression of trashiness. Cops are called regularly for fights, complaints, etc. These are not streets on which you'd probably choose to raise your children if you care about their surroundings outside the walls of your home. Most people would probably read this and assume this neighborhood has a minority population, but it does not. The residents are white. In fact the relatively few nonwhite residents of my community are either middle-class or professionals and they live in the average-or-better range of house prices I mentioned. So in this case the problem isn't ethnic-related, it's 'bad' tenants outnumbering homeowners or tenants who do care about their surroundings. Still, it's considered the "undesirable" or "least desireable" section of this community (yes, some would say "bad" but not in a racial context) by residents as well as realtors. There's a reason these houses are the lowest in price; part of it has to do with size but just as much with the neighborhood.

Then you have a community like Brentwood which should have been on my list but was accidentally omitted. Brentwood currently has 496 homes on MLS, ranging from $199,990 to $609,000. Ten homes are under 300K; 304 of them are between 300K and 400K. Only sixteen homes are priced at above 500K. You can take many of the problems of that small "undesireable" section of my community and apply it to MOST of Brentwood. There are also a lot more rentals, either whole houses (often with multiple sections) or illegal apartments rented out in private homes. Lots of Social Services housing there too. Drugs, crime and gang activity are statistically higher than in surrounding communities. The school district is not well regarded compared to many others on LI. The majority of the population of Brentwood is Hispanic and black. People can argue about which is cause and which is effect (on Brentwood's home values) till the cows come home, but no one can reasonably claim that most of Brentwood isn't widely considered a "worse" (however one defines it) place to live compared to a community similar to ours (yes, "undesirable section" and all.) There are homes in Brentwood that have the same physical characteristics of the lowest-priced homes in my community….. except that the ones located in Brentwood are priced at a good $100K less. Location, location, location.

[OvertaxedOnLI]

... in all those statistics, the geographical size of Brentwood. According to City-Data it is 10 square miles (versus 6 here). However, a goodsized chunk of Brentwood is taken up by Suffolk Community College property as well as the Pilgrim State Hospital facility and grounds. There are also significantly more commercial and industrial areas in Brentwood than in my community which is at least 85% single-family-residential zoning. So when comparing the two communities as far as total square miles actually utilized for homes and the public schools, I'd guess that they are probably quite close to being the same.

[Dedalus]

Originally Posted by GCGuy

PC crap is just that...crap. Call it what it is, a bad neighborhood. A bed nieghborhood is an area with higher crime, less attractive homes, and has a generally unpleasent, even dangerous feel. These are will likely have lower housing costs and poorly performing SDs. End of story.

The way I prefer to put it is: a bad neighborhood is one that consists of 95% people who bust their asses working for a living as opposed to a good neighborhood, where it's 99.9%. I heard tell of a neighborhood in Oakland, CA, where there were lots of older working class black homeowners. One night, the crack sellers tried to move in...the next night, all those older homeowners were out on their porches. With their guns. Bye, bye, drug dealers.

Originally Posted by GCGuy

Now, LI gets a bad rap for only having about 19% of the stock as rentals...so what? That's whats the areas great and safe. Now, with prices higher, I se it can be an issue. Something has to be worked out, but creating project-like developments is not the answer. That would ruin LI.

Furthermore, so what if white people want to live with white people? Do people complain when Chinatown develops, or when blacks WANT to live with blacks? No, that's wonderful...a cultural fantasy. Well, it's bs. People since the beginning of time wanted to live with people like themselves, and it's only now and with white people that this is a problem. Man, that irks me to no end. This insance notion that everyone needs to live together b/c diversity makes everything great is rubbish.

Sorry, these PC rants makes me nuts.

Projects = instant slums. It is incredible...if you look in any number of high priced cities, anywhere there is a "project", there's a zone of slumminess. Yeah, something has to be worked out. I'm not sure what. People want to get all "NIMBY" and nay say any new development, perhaps they should face some kind of economic disincentive. They want something, they can pay for it.

A reasonable percentage of the housing stock as rentals is important to have if you want to give young people starting out a chance. I think that's a good thing.

[OvertaxedOnLI]

Originally Posted by Dedalus

A reasonable percentage of the housing stock as rentals is important to have if you want to give young people starting out a chance. I think that's a good thing.

I completely agree, and that as things stand now, young people are caught in a severe bind if they want to stay on Long Island. Even if they want to dive into home ownership in their mid-late 20s to early 30s, very few have the savings to afford it without plunging themselves into a black hole of debt. So the "temporary" alternative is renting, but then what do they find? There are two types of rentals: Legal ones in good neighborhoods or in garden-apartment complexes in good areas (these are very expensive); or illegal apartments in private homes, or else very small rental houses. The affordable ones (meaning, say, less than $1500/month for a two-bedroom with water and perhaps one utility, probably heat, included) are likely to be in marginal economic neighborhoods. So how are young people supposed to be able to save enough money for a healthy down payment on a home if their rent and utilities are eating up $20K or more per year?

A friend of my son's was living in one of the many illegal in-home apartments for 3 years (basement apartment in a ranch) until the homeowner moved out and rented the main floor out as well. Apparantly the new tenants p*'d off some of the neighbors, who called in a complaint to the Town (they knew all along he was renting out the basement but had operated on the "no harm, no foul" principle). My son's friend got evicted because the homeowner was forced to remove the apartment (kitchen, bathroom, etc) from the basement. He bounced around for almost 3 months bunking with one buddy or another until he finally found something else affordable (yup, another illegal apartment!).

There has to be a better way.

[engsmom]

Originally Posted by OvertaxedOnLI

I completely agree, and that as things stand now, young people are caught in a severe bind if they want to stay on Long Island. Even if they want to dive into home ownership in their mid-late 20s to early 30s, very few have the savings to afford it without plunging themselves into a black hole of debt. So the "temporary" alternative is renting, but then what do they find? There are two types of rentals: Legal ones in good neighborhoods or in garden-apartment complexes in good areas (these are very expensive); or illegal apartments in private homes, or else very small rental houses. The affordable ones (meaning, say, less than $1500/month for a two-bedroom with water and perhaps one utility, probably heat, included) are likely to be in marginal economic neighborhoods. So how are young people supposed to be able to save enough money for a healthy down payment on a home if their rent and utilities are eating up $20K or more per year?

Not that my opinion matters much, but I am living what you write in your post right now Overtaxed...we live in a decent neighborhood in Bayport in a Garden Apartment and pay close to $1500 a month for 2 bedrooms and that does NOT include utilities...so we pay for everything and are still trying to save for a home, and we have 2 young children. I don't think any 20-30 somethings have a fighting chance, especially with many coming out of college with huge student loans already to start off their debt. That is why a majority (close to 80%) of our friends have moved out of state. The one's who do own a home, had to go into major debt just to own it, and my female friends are torn b/c they know they can't afford to have children and not work, but to pay $1000 or more for daycare and pay your mortgage each month can kill you as well. It just seems that it is a lose lose situation here on Long Island...

[nutmuffin]

If someone wants to live only with people of the same race around them , they are sticking their heads in the sand. because ,what are they going to do when they go out their door and go to work ? go shopping, to a resturant ?avoid all other races? This is 2007 people ! The world is a multi cultural place. what are they going to do when their children go to school and theres kids of different colors there ??
What are they going to do when their son or daughter comes home with a person from a different race and says "Mom, dad, we are in love" .! what do you do ? Disown them ? The whole idea of segegation is an ignorant joke.
Everyone should be judged, not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. Sound familiar ?

Regarding housing; todays renters could be tomorrows buyers. havent you ever heard to "rent to own" ? Yes, of course some people who rent couldnt care less about the property, and yes , if someone owns the home they are more likely to take care of it.. but there are "homeowners" who are ,loud and abusive to the rest of the neighborhood. they feel they have the "right" to behave that way because the "own the home ".
Having a deed to a home for 400,000 doesnt prove intelligence, class ,character , tolerance or good manners. But, sometimes it does prove that they bought the home just to impress family and friends instead of planning if they can afford it down the line. Can they afford the oil bill? gas bill? LIPA bill ,water bill ?
Ahhh, maybe that 200,000 wasnt a bad idea afterall ?

In this society, with the economy the way its going.. companies outsourcing overseas.,layoffs.. WE , here on Long Island are ALL just one mortgage payment away from being homeless.. So before you think you have it all figured out about good neighborhoods and bad neighborhoods.. might be a good idea to add up ALL the real costs of living !


.

[lynnsprufera]

I just relocated to Raleigh NC last year. I really loved LI (past tense) but still do appreciate what it had to offer even today, the beaches and beautiful North Shore to name a couple! To bad that the taxes, utilities and housing are so out of control. The economy on LI is so limited because it is an a island. You can't build out East (Pine Barrens) can't build North/South (Ocean) and can't build into Manhattan. This leads to relatively no new housing, and the area is now contracting; many people leave because there is no future for them. We left and are finding our way in Raleigh and it really is like turning the clock back on Long Island 20 years ago. Cary is rated one of the best places to live, like LI did at one time. The difference here is that they can keep building. There is land all around us and there is always a place for young people to move. Our goal was to move to a place where my children could have more options that one public university ( Stonybrook ) and afford to raise a family of their own. They need a future also. Here, starter homes and condos, in nice areas, are only 200,000. That is amazing to a Long Islander.

[arjr]

Here is my "Not So Scientific Theory" of why LI has become the way it is.

It is a well know fact, that people in time come to resemble their pets.

Well, I believe that people also come to look like AND behave like the place they live.

We all know what Long Island looks like on a map right?

If you sit down at a poker table and you do not know who the fish is...it is because you are it.

I mean, either we all look like fish or there must be a "I'm a fish!" sign on all of our backs that only politicians and big business can see!

How else could we all have allowed ourselves to be snookered into suffering the property taxes we pay, ($6,300/yr on less than .25 acre and 1700Sq ft. 30yr old home, with star and vets exemption) or the exorbitant utilities ($200/mth LIPA, $95/quarter SCWA), the bloated sales tax (8.65%, that was only supposed to be for a short time), the so-called hidden taxes, such as gasoline etc.etc..ad nauseum.

All for the "privilege" of living in a overcrowded, extremely expensive bowl.

[OvertaxedOnLI]

Originally Posted by nutmuffin

WE , here on Long Island are ALL just one mortgage payment away from being homeless...

ALL of us LI'ers are just one mortgage payment away from being homeless? That'll come as news to those of us who have either paid off their mortgage (yes that really does happen; not everyone spends every day of their adult life in some type of debt) or bought the house they're living in, for cash (yes that happens too).

I'm not arguing the points you make in your post, though IMHO the hyperbole wasn't necessary. Of course there are people in 400K-and-up homes who are "house poor". Of course one has to look at the big picture of cost of living, and not just focus only on the sticker price of the home and/or the monthly mortgage payment amount. But the sticker price of any home is greatly influenced by its location and how that location is perceived by the majority of potential buyers. Whether you agree with that perception or not, doesn't change its reality. And that reality applies whether the house in question is located on Long Island, in Podunk, Nebraska, or in an arondissement of Paris.

No one's holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to buy a house located in an area that's predominately populated by people of their own race, ethnicity or religion. Likewise, no one's forcing anyone to buy a house in an area where that's not the case. It is A PERSONAL CHOICE that everyone is free to make. I would never have the arrogance to tell you what kind of neighborhood or community I think you should live in; kindly extend the same level of respect to me also.