Aircraft Noise over Nassau County (Hempstead, Garden City: insurance, homes, neighborhood)

[Johninwestbury]

Thanks for your technical description of what's going on. 2500 feet is quite low, only twice the height of the ESB I believe, so no wonder the noise is so bad. I've noticed the noise regardless of wind, and on windy days you sometimes see a cross wind as the plane moves forward you can see the wind pushing it sideways.
I always thought crosswinds were worse for landing than tail or headwinds.
The 22L approach (Belmont?) is supposed to follow the LIE until Glen Cove rd, so why do they planes fly over Westbury and Roosevelt Field instead?
The noise just flat out seems to be getting worse. If it's not a change in flight patterns, it's an increase in the amount of jet traffic or just bigger planes.
I understand a rapid decent is not as safe, but when flying low to the ground over a heavily populated area, an engine failure could lead to a huge disaster.
Just look at what happened to the flight that landed in the Hudson River. They were lucky they had a very talented pilot and the Hudson River nearby.
But what about a novice pilot having an engine failure on the JFK approach over Hicksville. There's nowhere to land the plane, no rivers,etc. It will crash into houses or malls and kill thousands and result in catastrophic property loss. If the plane had more altitude it would mean more margin for error.
Just something to think about. I wouldn't buy a home in Nassau because of it that's for sure.
I could get more land, more parks, and less noise out in Suffolk, so the choice is obvious.

Originally Posted by samyn on the green

You are showing a tremendous amount of ignorance in this post. First off a final approach is initiated 10 miles from the runway and these procedures dictate that the airplane is no more that 2500 feet above the ground. This is standard procedure for safe approaches at thousands of airports around the world. Roller coast like descents in the final minutes of flight would lead to decreased safety in the cockpit. In fact the procedure for runway 22L approaches dictate decent to 2500 over Deer Park on the way to the final approach.

In this post we covered how runway selection has nothing to do with wanting to bother people it has everything to do with safety and the complexity of the New York tracon. Runway selection is primarily dictated by wind direction. Someone else posted that 60% of all air delays originate in New York. It is vital that every runway is utilized and the airspace is used as efficiently as safely as possible. We do not need pilots performing unsafe tailwind landings. Do we really want to prioritize some persons BBQ over the possibility of 300 people dying in a fiery airplane accident caused by a unsafe tailwind landing?


The direction of landing is always dictated by wind, if the wind is out of the SW JFK traffic will always fly west then SW into JFK runway 22 Left. Luckily for you the prevailing wind during the winter is out of the NW so you will get a reprieve. Runway 31/R/L has been the primary approach fro the last few months. However very soon the wind will start favoring runway 22 so the noise over Long Island will increase. However in 2009 your complaints will be mitigated by a better understanding of the science behind why airplanes fly at the altitude and direction they do.

[sean sean sean sean]

Originally Posted by Johninwestbury

I understand a rapid decent is not as safe, but when flying low to the ground over a heavily populated area, an engine failure could lead to a huge disaster.
Just look at what happened to the flight that landed in the Hudson River. They were lucky they had a very talented pilot and the Hudson River nearby.
But what about a novice pilot having an engine failure on the JFK approach over Hicksville. There's nowhere to land the plane, no rivers,etc. It will crash into houses or malls and kill thousands and result in catastrophic property loss. If the plane had more altitude it would mean more margin for error.
Just something to think about. I wouldn't buy a home in Nassau because of it that's for sure.
I could get more land, more parks, and less noise out in Suffolk, so the choice is obvious.

I'm not 100% positive, but I'm pretty sure a plane already on approach would have no problem landing if it had only lost one engine. All commercial airliners in the skies today have at least two. If they couldn't get it down at either JFK or LGA, there's always the sound or the Atlantic Ocean. Anytime I've been in a plane over LI we've made it across the entirety of the island (north-south) in a matter of seconds. If there was some kind of failure catastrophic enough where the pilot had completely lost control and enters a stall, there's really no telling where it's gonna come down and increased altitude could work for or against it coming down on land.

You seriously wouldn't buy a home in Nassau because you're worried about an airplane crashing into it? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've read on here so far. You've got better odds of winning the lottery.

I do agree though, you should definitely move to Suffolk.

[S.I.B.]

Originally Posted by Johninwestbury

Thanks for your technical description of what's going on. 2500 feet is quite low, only twice the height of the ESB I believe, so no wonder the noise is so bad. I've noticed the noise regardless of wind, and on windy days you sometimes see a cross wind as the plane moves forward you can see the wind pushing it sideways.
I always thought crosswinds were worse for landing than tail or headwinds.
The 22L approach (Belmont?) is supposed to follow the LIE until Glen Cove rd, so why do they planes fly over Westbury and Roosevelt Field instead?
The noise just flat out seems to be getting worse. If it's not a change in flight patterns, it's an increase in the amount of jet traffic or just bigger planes.
I understand a rapid decent is not as safe, but when flying low to the ground over a heavily populated area, an engine failure could lead to a huge disaster.
Just look at what happened to the flight that landed in the Hudson River. They were lucky they had a very talented pilot and the Hudson River nearby.
But what about a novice pilot having an engine failure on the JFK approach over Hicksville. There's nowhere to land the plane, no rivers,etc. It will crash into houses or malls and kill thousands and result in catastrophic property loss. If the plane had more altitude it would mean more margin for error.
Just something to think about. I wouldn't buy a home in Nassau because of it that's for sure.
I could get more land, more parks, and less noise out in Suffolk, so the choice is obvious.

I hope you're kidding. That's ridiculous.

[TomMoser]

Originally Posted by Johninwestbury

I guess if one doesn't want to deal constant jet noise they better move out east!

Then you can get the noise from the helicopters heading to the hamptons on Fridays and again back on Sundays.

[ADNY007]

The point is there is no reason for planes to need to fly so low over residential areas where there are alternatives. I don't need to hear the noise of planes circling above neighborhoods. They can circle over the water.

[azzurrony]

My biggest beef with the decents into JFK is this....

They follow the same damn pattern regardless of wind!! Whether that wind is South to SW or plain old SW, they take the same pattern oftentimes cutting right through residential neighborhoods in East Williston, Garden City, Franklin Sq., etc.

At the point at which they cross over these neighborhoods they are 2,000 ft above ground. This is a fact...and can be tracked on the JFK Passur website.

Trust me...at 2000 ft, these 747 are LOUD. With all the windows closed in my house, I can hear them clearly (I'm in GC). A string of them woke me up at 8am on Sunday morning.

---
So what can be done? There seem to only be 2 consistent paths for approach to 22L...either over New Hyde Park and Floral Park or over Garden City and then cutting over South Floral Park.

I'm sorry..but they need to start mixing it up a bit more. If they would just come in a quarter of a mile east or west of those points once in a while, that would greatly reduce the noise and share the burden among more neighborhoods.

This could easily be done without compromising safety. We are only asking for a .25 mile changes here and there.

[Johninwestbury]

You're absolutely right, it is regardless of wind getting to be every night. They should be shifted north, technically as I've said they are supposed to follow the LIE and then start turning SW around Roslyn.
That would give us folks in the Central Nassau jet zone a break. As I've said before the best solution is a redesign of having flights approach JFK from over the ocean. I am pretty sure they used to travel along the south shore, then turn NW over Island Park and come in over Valley Stream and Rosedale. Those people live close to the airport so it isn't so unexpected there.
Instead they line all the incoming planes up to travel along the LIRR "Main Line", curving west at Bethpage and then Hicksville, Westbury, Garden City,etc.
And it's one after another after another. When one plane is passing over Westbury with it's engine's screaming there's another one on the horizon. As far as those who think I would be crazy to have it be a factor in buying a home, I dont think so, try living with jets roaring and screaming overhead every 2 minutes every day!
This is bad for our property values as Nassau is in the screw zone it seems. I guess we're on our way to inner-city life.
Now if you want peace you have to move out to Suffolk, or to the extreme north or south shore.

Originally Posted by azzurrony

My biggest beef with the decents into JFK is this....

They follow the same damn pattern regardless of wind!! Whether that wind is South to SW or plain old SW, they take the same pattern oftentimes cutting right through residential neighborhoods in East Williston, Garden City, Franklin Sq., etc.

At the point at which they cross over these neighborhoods they are 2,000 ft above ground. This is a fact...and can be tracked on the JFK Passur website.

Trust me...at 2000 ft, these 747 are LOUD. With all the windows closed in my house, I can hear them clearly (I'm in GC). A string of them woke me up at 8am on Sunday morning.

---
So what can be done? There seem to only be 2 consistent paths for approach to 22L...either over New Hyde Park and Floral Park or over Garden City and then cutting over South Floral Park.

I'm sorry..but they need to start mixing it up a bit more. If they would just come in a quarter of a mile east or west of those points once in a while, that would greatly reduce the noise and share the burden among more neighborhoods.

This could easily be done without compromising safety. We are only asking for a .25 mile changes here and there.

[samyn on the green]

FYI this is another procedure the pilots and ATC follow when winds favor runway 22 left arrivals. This approach is mostly used for afternoon European arrivals which are vectored in from the East Hampton VOR to Deer Park and then this procedure.

This procedure is to fly over the Deer Park VOR at 2000 feet then a few turns towards the SW until you are lined up with the runway. If you live under this procedure you better start loving airplanes because they will be above you.

When winds favor this runway I can not think of a final approach that would bring traffic in from over the ocean. As the weather gets warmer there will be a prevailing sea breeze from the south that will make the winds favor this runway from around this time of year until the early fall.

At the very least here is your chance to see what the pilots on the way to JFK are working with. Also consider that ATC has to separate JFK traffic from LGA, EWR, HPN, ISP, HVN, SWF, WRI and PHL traffic which is all with in a 100 mile radius of JFK. They do not have the room nor freedom to route planes where they wish.

[Johninwestbury]

Thanks again for the map. Many of the planes I see on flight aware seem to be coming in from the south or west and loop over my area though. I do know where the Deer Park VOR is as it is across the bridge path from Edgewood preserve, the trail goes past there on the way to Ostego Park.
Thanks for the interesting maps. I also think there's a VOR in Calverton too in a field just west of the 25A merge with 25, I didn't know what those weird structures were until someone mentioned they were VOR's. Where's the East Hampton one?

[samyn on the green]

You are right there is one in Calverton as well. Many planes arriving from Europe are routed over Calverton then vectored to a point just off shore then to Deer Park then the above procedure.

Originally Posted by Johninwestbury

Thanks again for the map. Many of the planes I see on flight aware seem to be coming in from the south or west over my area though. I do know where the Deer Park VOR is as it is across the bridge path from Edgewood preserve, the trail goes past there on the way to Ostego Park.
Thanks for the interesting maps. I also think there's a VOR in Calverton too, I didn't know what those weird structures were until someone mentioned they were VOR's.