Newsweek 2009 top 1500 schools (Garden City, Cold Spring Harbor, Nassau: mortgage, how much, house)

[OhBeeHave]

Originally Posted by dman72

These lists seem to be mostly populated by specialty schools. Do you think if we created special Science and Math High Schools on LI they wouldn't dominate those ratings? Taking the top 10% of students? You're comparing a HS like Jericho that is made up of students from all across the demographics and abilities, to specialized Science and Math High Schools in other areas. Look at all the NY City schools on the list..they're all specialty schools. It's not like you move into some area of the city and you automatically attend those schools. The criteria for these lists doesn't make sense to me. Of course if you take all the smartest kids from an area and put them in one school they will achieve far higher than a school where students attend because of where they live.

AMEN dman72!

Imagine if LI schools could pick and choose who to enroll...or if the specialized schools had to take everyone...

[zulu400]

Originally Posted by rocafeller05

^^ Zulu400- actually there were only 2 winners out of NY state. 5th & 8th place.

Intel Education: Intel Science Talent Search: Getting Started

Yeah, but I think more students are from NY compared to other states, so as such we can say that the general standard is pretty good.

[flowergarden]

I think you are throwing the baby out with the bath water. Just because the list contains magnet schools doesn't mean that the list is meaningless. Take the magnet schools out of the list, and you still see that many public, non magnet schools are doing an excellent job at educating children. Kids from public high schools from around the country are achieving, and doing it very well. High AP scores, high average SAT scores. Very few of those schools are located on LI. So is the list broken or is the LI system (really the NY sytem) in need of repair?

[dman72]

Originally Posted by flowergarden

I think you are throwing the baby out with the bath water. Just because the list contains magnet schools doesn't mean that the list is meaningless. Take the magnet schools out of the list, and you still see that many public, non magnet schools are doing an excellent job at educating children. Kids from public high schools from around the country are achieving, and doing it very well. High AP scores, high average SAT scores. Very few of those schools are located on LI. So is the list broken or is the LI system (really the NY sytem) in need of repair?

Nice leap. You take an assumption, with no basis in fact, and then say, "since my flawed assumption is true, we should fix the system."

Talk about being agenda driven and putting the cart before the horse.

You think the system is broken, the facts show otherwise. How many schools on LI should be on that list to make you think that the system isn't broken? Or is it really not about the schools performance at all..it's simply about taxes and finding any justification to say our schools aren't good even though we pay a lot for them? Of the top 39 open enrollment schools, 3 are on Long Island. We're talking about 2 counties in one state. How many SHOULD be on there? All 39 because someone pays 8K in property taxes?

[flowergarden]

I think you are making my point - the list has meaning. It's not all about magnet schools, it's about lots of public schools. Now, once we get to the point where we accept that, we can now go on to have the conversation about "how good is good" and how many LI schools "should" be on the list and so on. My previous post was because many posters were basically saying " if magnet schools are included then how can the list be any good".

[dman72]

Originally Posted by flowergarden

I think you are making my point - the list has meaning. It's not all about magnet schools, it's about lots of public schools. Now, once we get to the point where we accept that, we can now go on to have the conversation about "how good is good" and how many LI schools "should" be on the list and so on. My previous post was because many posters were basically saying " if magnet schools are included then how can the list be any good".

If you are saying that we should have magnet schools, that's a separate argument. I think magnet schools are a bad idea for LI, in general. I think that kids in the upper levels on LI HS do exceedingly well and are well prepared for elite schools, so why remove them from the local districts if the system isn't broken? In a place like NYC, you need to remove them because the regular schools are war zones. That's not the case in the vast majority of LI High Schools. If you want to create a magnet school for the better students form Wyandanch, Roosevelt and Hempstead High Schools, that might not be a bad idea.

[flowergarden]

I did not say that I think we should have magnet schools. I have never said that we should have magnet schools. All I said was the US News and World Report and even the Newsweek list have meaning. That schools listed on that list are preforming very well. That in spite of the list containing magnet schools the list still shows which schools are preforming well based on the criteria used to develop the list. That is all my last 2 posts have said. The list has meaning.

[dman72]

Originally Posted by flowergarden

I did not say that I think we should have magnet schools. I have never said that we should have magnet schools. All I said was the US News and World Report and even the Newsweek list have meaning. That schools listed on that list are preforming very well. That in spite of the list containing magnet schools the list still shows which schools are preforming well based on the criteria used to develop the list. That is all my last 2 posts have said. The list has meaning.

That's a nice vaguery. However, in the same breath you implied that either the list is broken, that the school system on LI is broken and needs fixing because this list isn't overflowing with Li schools. This implies that you think this list is evidence to either fact. On the contrary, it is not evidence to that at all. It is evidence to the fact that areas without great schools can make themselves look better by putting all the smart kids in separate schools from everyone else.

So, you'll have to find some OTHER evidence that indicates that the educational system on LI is broken, or maybe change your tune on that matter, since most evidence indicates that it ISN'T broken.

People are being taxed to death, yes. That's a valid argument. However, all the people who are insane about taxes who try to use the offensive strategy of saying that schools aren't good ..have little or no credibility. This is where the "agenda" comes in. People hate school taxes, so, instead of simply saying that taxes are too high, they have to say the schools stink, as they think that reinforces their agenda. It actually takes credibility away from them, because the schools don't stink.

[flowergarden]

It's difficult to have a "converstaion" with you because you keep assigning me motivations and theories that I've never professed.

1)You said the list is full of magnet schools so the list is meaningless to us LIers to use to see how our schools are doing. I said, "the list is meaningful b/c you can take the magnet schools off the list if it disturbs you and the list is still meaningful for people to see how their school compares to others across the country."

2) Then you agreed the list did have validity, but then went on to say that you didn't agree with my desire for magnet schools. Then I said I never said I wanted magnet schools.

3) Then you said I was being vague and I thought the schools needed fixing b/c the list isn't flowing with LI schools. I didn't say that. I did say if you are going to claim the list isn't good b/c it has lots of magnet schools on it and not alot of LI schools, then maybe you need to rethink that since the list is a good indicator. If a large number of LI schools are not on the list, it's not b/c the list is meaningless, but more that the schools aren't meeting these national criteria. That's it.

4) then you went on to talk about taxes and other things that I never addressed.

So - what do I think? I think the US News list is very valid. I also see a few LI schools make that list. Many more do not. Some of our schools are outstanding. Most are just average. Is average the same as "stink" - no. Average is just that - they are ok. Is average ok with me? No - it's not. I want great schools, not good schools. I'd like to have conversations about how do we make these good schools great? Is it possible? Is it feasible? What steps can we take as a community to make our "good" schools great.

I have no other agenda and I'd appreciate it if you stopped assigning me ones I don't have.

[dman72]

Originally Posted by flowergarden

It's difficult to have a "converstaion" with you because you keep assigning me motivations and theories that I've never professed.

1)You said the list is full of magnet schools so the list is meaningless to us LIers to use to see how our schools are doing. I said, "the list is meaningful b/c you can take the magnet schools off the list if it disturbs you and the list is still meaningful for people to see how their school compares to others across the country."

2) Then you agreed the list did have validity, but then went on to say that you didn't agree with my desire for magnet schools. Then I said I never said I wanted magnet schools.

3) Then you said I was being vague and I thought the schools needed fixing b/c the list isn't flowing with LI schools. I didn't say that. I did say if you are going to claim the list isn't good b/c it has lots of magnet schools on it and not alot of LI schools, then maybe you need to rethink that since the list is a good indicator. If a large number of LI schools are not on the list, it's not b/c the list is meaningless, but more that the schools aren't meeting these national criteria. That's it.

4) then you went on to talk about taxes and other things that I never addressed.

So - what do I think? I think the US News list is very valid. I also see a few LI schools make that list. Many more do not. Some of our schools are outstanding. Most are just average. Is average the same as "stink" - no. Average is just that - they are ok. Is average ok with me? No - it's not. I want great schools, not good schools. I'd like to have conversations about how do we make these good schools great? Is it possible? Is it feasible? What steps can we take as a community to make our "good" schools great.

I have no other agenda and I'd appreciate it if you stopped assigning me ones I don't have.

Maybe if you didn't take 8 posts to finally tell us what your actual position is..albeit still a quite vague one...people wouldn't assign you motives.

You make schools great by having an environment that is conducive to learning, with parents who are involved and who care, with students who are at least capable of learning. The vast majority of schools on LI fit this criteria to a much higher extent than in most other areas of the country.

A very average school by LI standards, like, say, Sachem HS, is actually quite above average by national standards, according to Great Schools.com. So..where you are getting the idea that most schools in LI are just average..I don't know. You should perhaps put forth something that supports that assumption. The US News and Newsweek polls listing the top 100 schools in any number of categories don't prove that in any way, shape of form, despite what your opinion on them seems to be.

Of the top open enrollment schools in the top 100, most tend to be clustered around the suburbs of NYC, Washington DC, and the Bay area in California. This area is not underepresented in any way, shape, or form...it's actually quite well represented. To derive the opinion that schools on LI are "average" form this data indicate something other than someone looking at facts. I'd appreciate some insight into your methodology that says that LI schools are "average" .