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Old 06-24-2009, 08:26 AM
 
7,262 posts, read 7,521,641 times
Reputation: 2851
Quote:
Originally Posted by bagpiper View Post
Speed Kills, Period.

What is the difference between a Mercedes Benz that is sold in Germany an one that is sold in America ? Cup Holders.

Driving in Germany means driving at high rates of speeds, but requires 100% of your attention.

American drivers are used to driving at lower speeds. Drivers fall into a false sense of security by multitasking during driving with cell phone use, eating, drinking, applying make up, texting, reading, etc. If you add tiredness, bad weather and speed, and it's a bad mix.

We don't need to learn how to drive well fast, but just to drive well.

The best part of driving at Floyd Bennett Field is that you are exposed to how to properly use the brakes, avoid obstacles, and handling a car under normal speeds, but not how to drive fast. This type of training is invaluable and every driver should be exposed to some type of training like this so they do not have to practice how to handle a car on the road but in a safe controlled environment.
I learned these things driving my first car in an empty snow filled parking lot where there was nothing to hit and there were no cops around. While it was fun to throw the car into a skid, I also learned what it would take to regain control of the car, how far I could slide at certain speeds, etc.
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Old 06-24-2009, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Suffolk County, NY
875 posts, read 1,492,411 times
Reputation: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
The original poster obviously wants a race track. The case of these 2 accidents has nothing to do with race tracks.

Quogue does not have it's own police academy. Most likely they train in the Suffolk Academy or with one of the towns. Suffolk Sheriffs also train at SCPD academy.

I know cops. Many speed to some extent. Recklessly? Maybe not. 80 on the LIE? yes. I have one uncle who always stuck to 5 over the speed limit. He was not the norm.

I have to commend you for your level of civility. You've yet to insinuate that I'm : 1) a skel with a record 2) a jealous guy who failed out of the academy. Instead, you simply discussed the topic in a thoughtful and intelligent manner. I knew you guys were out there!!
I have a firm belief that insulting people does nothing as far as getting a point across. I believe that all you do by insulting is anger someone and your message does not get heard or thought about. I also have no problem with someone having a different opinion than I do on any issue. I simply try to state how I formulate my opinion and give as many actual facts as I can to support the same. If I change someone's opinion on the subject; great. If not, that is fine as well. At the same time I am often unintentionally wrong with some things and have no problem admitting when I am proven wrong.
I just want to be clear that following is a general point and is not directed towards you at all. I have stated that I am a retired NYPD officer and I do know that there are a lot of people whom just generally dislike police officers and will take every opportunity to bash them. Often, this mindset comes from either a bad experience with a police officer for which I can't say the person is wrong being that I was obviously not a witness to whatever incident took place or an individual hearing stories about others having bad experiences with police officers. I would not be able to get my point across that police officers are separate individuals and should be looked at on an individual basis just as the general population should be if I start "bashing" people for what they think.
I have also arrested people that were actually not really bad people for doing crimes. For instance, I once arrested a 14 year old for a robbery (not an armed robbery; it was more that they were hitting another teenager and took school supplies) in which he acted in concert with two others (yes, I arrested them as well). It turned out they were in the Crips gang. The one 14 year old I am referring to was very upset about being arrested and when I spoke with him alone he had told me that he wanted no part of the gang but they were beating him up every day on the block he lived on until he joined. I do not want to make this post way too long so I will just say that I found out that what he was saying was true. I talked to the victim and the ADA and actually helped to get him a good plea deal which for juvenile was really a slap on the wrist. I also gave him my cell number so that if he sees these individuals on his block I can just "happen" to be passing by his block and disperse the individuals. This actually did happen and he actually stayed out of the gang. I also hooked him up with a police department program that he went to religiously that was set up for teenagers. The best part of this story was that a number of years later while doing a car stop I heard someone call my last name. It turned out to be the same "kid" I arrested and helped out. He thanked me for helping him out when he was younger and informed me that he stayed out of trouble and was in college doing well. The real point I am trying to make with this story is that just because someone has something criminal on their record does not mean that the person is really a bad person and will be committing crimes for the rest of his or her life. Every person should be looked at on an individual basis and nobody should ever jump to conclusions about anyone based upon whatever group they are in, job they hold, race, etc.
This leads me to my last point to anyone whom has had an incident with a police officer in which they felt the officer was unfair to them or overly harsh. You never know what that officer's last assignment was before you encountered him or her. I was the first at a scene where a gentleman stabbed his girlfriend in the chest which killed her. This happened in front of her four year old son (the man was not the child's father) that myself and my partner found hiding in a bedroom adjacent to the room where the incident took place. I do not have to say what condition this child was in due to what he had just witnessed. The child would not talk at all. Being that this was a homicide the detectives took over the scene and myself and my partner had to drive the child to the hospital and wait for more detectives and child services to arrive there. At the hospital the child still did not speak and myself and my partner bought him a soda and did not try to get him to speak. We simply let him know that we were there for him and that nobody can hurt him. All myself and my partner had to do was to write the initial incident report for being the first on the scene which we finished at the hospital. Once the detectives and the child services people arrived our Sgt. took the report from us and told us to go back out on patrol. As we were leaving, the child broke out crying and screaming, hugged my partner and finally spoke saying that he did not want us to leave. The child service people and the detectives took him away from us and we had to go back out on patrol. At this point I do not remember what our next "job" that came over the radio was but I can guarantee that our demeanors were quite different with people, especially those giving us a hard time, then they were earlier in the day. I think that anyone reading this can understand why. Of course, anyone we encountered from the public would not know this and we would not tell them this. The point being made is that you never know what that officer had to go through even 5 or 10 minutes before encountering you. Try to keep this in mind the next time you get pulled over before telling the officer how you pay his salary and he should be going after "real" criminals instead of pulling you over for speeding.
Sorry for the extremely long posts. It is sometimes hard to get a point across in short posts.
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Old 06-24-2009, 09:42 AM
 
1,615 posts, read 2,135,175 times
Reputation: 1059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Egobop View Post
I have a firm belief that insulting people does nothing as far as getting a point across. I believe that all you do by insulting is anger someone and your message does not get heard or thought about. I also have no problem with someone having a different opinion than I do on any issue. I simply try to state how I formulate my opinion and give as many actual facts as I can to support the same. If I change someone's opinion on the subject; great. If not, that is fine as well. At the same time I am often unintentionally wrong with some things and have no problem admitting when I am proven wrong.
I just want to be clear that following is a general point and is not directed towards you at all. I have stated that I am a retired NYPD officer and I do know that there are a lot of people whom just generally dislike police officers and will take every opportunity to bash them. Often, this mindset comes from either a bad experience with a police officer for which I can't say the person is wrong being that I was obviously not a witness to whatever incident took place or an individual hearing stories about others having bad experiences with police officers. I would not be able to get my point across that police officers are separate individuals and should be looked at on an individual basis just as the general population should be if I start "bashing" people for what they think.
I have also arrested people that were actually not really bad people for doing crimes. For instance, I once arrested a 14 year old for a robbery (not an armed robbery; it was more that they were hitting another teenager and took school supplies) in which he acted in concert with two others (yes, I arrested them as well). It turned out they were in the Crips gang. The one 14 year old I am referring to was very upset about being arrested and when I spoke with him alone he had told me that he wanted no part of the gang but they were beating him up every day on the block he lived on until he joined. I do not want to make this post way too long so I will just say that I found out that what he was saying was true. I talked to the victim and the ADA and actually helped to get him a good plea deal which for juvenile was really a slap on the wrist. I also gave him my cell number so that if he sees these individuals on his block I can just "happen" to be passing by his block and disperse the individuals. This actually did happen and he actually stayed out of the gang. I also hooked him up with a police department program that he went to religiously that was set up for teenagers. The best part of this story was that a number of years later while doing a car stop I heard someone call my last name. It turned out to be the same "kid" I arrested and helped out. He thanked me for helping him out when he was younger and informed me that he stayed out of trouble and was in college doing well. The real point I am trying to make with this story is that just because someone has something criminal on their record does not mean that the person is really a bad person and will be committing crimes for the rest of his or her life. Every person should be looked at on an individual basis and nobody should ever jump to conclusions about anyone based upon whatever group they are in, job they hold, race, etc.
This leads me to my last point to anyone whom has had an incident with a police officer in which they felt the officer was unfair to them or overly harsh. You never know what that officer's last assignment was before you encountered him or her. I was the first at a scene where a gentleman stabbed his girlfriend in the chest which killed her. This happened in front of her four year old son (the man was not the child's father) that myself and my partner found hiding in a bedroom adjacent to the room where the incident took place. I do not have to say what condition this child was in due to what he had just witnessed. The child would not talk at all. Being that this was a homicide the detectives took over the scene and myself and my partner had to drive the child to the hospital and wait for more detectives and child services to arrive there. At the hospital the child still did not speak and myself and my partner bought him a soda and did not try to get him to speak. We simply let him know that we were there for him and that nobody can hurt him. All myself and my partner had to do was to write the initial incident report for being the first on the scene which we finished at the hospital. Once the detectives and the child services people arrived our Sgt. took the report from us and told us to go back out on patrol. As we were leaving, the child broke out crying and screaming, hugged my partner and finally spoke saying that he did not want us to leave. The child service people and the detectives took him away from us and we had to go back out on patrol. At this point I do not remember what our next "job" that came over the radio was but I can guarantee that our demeanors were quite different with people, especially those giving us a hard time, then they were earlier in the day. I think that anyone reading this can understand why. Of course, anyone we encountered from the public would not know this and we would not tell them this. The point being made is that you never know what that officer had to go through even 5 or 10 minutes before encountering you. Try to keep this in mind the next time you get pulled over before telling the officer how you pay his salary and he should be going after "real" criminals instead of pulling you over for speeding.
Sorry for the extremely long posts. It is sometimes hard to get a point across in short posts.
Paragraphs please. K. Thanks
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Old 06-24-2009, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Suffolk County, NY
875 posts, read 1,492,411 times
Reputation: 444
Ok. Sorry about that.
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Old 06-24-2009, 10:38 AM
 
7,262 posts, read 7,521,641 times
Reputation: 2851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Egobop View Post
I have a firm belief that insulting people does nothing as far as getting a point across. I believe that all you do by insulting is anger someone and your message does not get heard or thought about. I also have no problem with someone having a different opinion than I do on any issue. I simply try to state how I formulate my opinion and give as many actual facts as I can to support the same. If I change someone's opinion on the subject; great. If not, that is fine as well. At the same time I am often unintentionally wrong with some things and have no problem admitting when I am proven wrong.
I just want to be clear that following is a general point and is not directed towards you at all. I have stated that I am a retired NYPD officer and I do know that there are a lot of people whom just generally dislike police officers and will take every opportunity to bash them. Often, this mindset comes from either a bad experience with a police officer for which I can't say the person is wrong being that I was obviously not a witness to whatever incident took place or an individual hearing stories about others having bad experiences with police officers. I would not be able to get my point across that police officers are separate individuals and should be looked at on an individual basis just as the general population should be if I start "bashing" people for what they think.
I have also arrested people that were actually not really bad people for doing crimes. For instance, I once arrested a 14 year old for a robbery (not an armed robbery; it was more that they were hitting another teenager and took school supplies) in which he acted in concert with two others (yes, I arrested them as well). It turned out they were in the Crips gang. The one 14 year old I am referring to was very upset about being arrested and when I spoke with him alone he had told me that he wanted no part of the gang but they were beating him up every day on the block he lived on until he joined. I do not want to make this post way too long so I will just say that I found out that what he was saying was true. I talked to the victim and the ADA and actually helped to get him a good plea deal which for juvenile was really a slap on the wrist. I also gave him my cell number so that if he sees these individuals on his block I can just "happen" to be passing by his block and disperse the individuals. This actually did happen and he actually stayed out of the gang. I also hooked him up with a police department program that he went to religiously that was set up for teenagers. The best part of this story was that a number of years later while doing a car stop I heard someone call my last name. It turned out to be the same "kid" I arrested and helped out. He thanked me for helping him out when he was younger and informed me that he stayed out of trouble and was in college doing well. The real point I am trying to make with this story is that just because someone has something criminal on their record does not mean that the person is really a bad person and will be committing crimes for the rest of his or her life. Every person should be looked at on an individual basis and nobody should ever jump to conclusions about anyone based upon whatever group they are in, job they hold, race, etc.
This leads me to my last point to anyone whom has had an incident with a police officer in which they felt the officer was unfair to them or overly harsh. You never know what that officer's last assignment was before you encountered him or her. I was the first at a scene where a gentleman stabbed his girlfriend in the chest which killed her. This happened in front of her four year old son (the man was not the child's father) that myself and my partner found hiding in a bedroom adjacent to the room where the incident took place. I do not have to say what condition this child was in due to what he had just witnessed. The child would not talk at all. Being that this was a homicide the detectives took over the scene and myself and my partner had to drive the child to the hospital and wait for more detectives and child services to arrive there. At the hospital the child still did not speak and myself and my partner bought him a soda and did not try to get him to speak. We simply let him know that we were there for him and that nobody can hurt him. All myself and my partner had to do was to write the initial incident report for being the first on the scene which we finished at the hospital. Once the detectives and the child services people arrived our Sgt. took the report from us and told us to go back out on patrol. As we were leaving, the child broke out crying and screaming, hugged my partner and finally spoke saying that he did not want us to leave. The child service people and the detectives took him away from us and we had to go back out on patrol. At this point I do not remember what our next "job" that came over the radio was but I can guarantee that our demeanors were quite different with people, especially those giving us a hard time, then they were earlier in the day. I think that anyone reading this can understand why. Of course, anyone we encountered from the public would not know this and we would not tell them this. The point being made is that you never know what that officer had to go through even 5 or 10 minutes before encountering you. Try to keep this in mind the next time you get pulled over before telling the officer how you pay his salary and he should be going after "real" criminals instead of pulling you over for speeding.
Sorry for the extremely long posts. It is sometimes hard to get a point across in short posts.
No paragraphs aside, I have no issue with individual cops. I have issues with arrogant people who abuse their power, a type that disproportionately gravitates into police work (and politics), and I feel that you can feel the bad cops out in the way they communicate. You don't communicate like an arrogant cop. Too level headed. You remind me of my uncle, who was a cop for 25 years...level headed, insightful but tough. Not a bully.

I worked and grew up with dozens of people who became cops. More often than not, they had power issues. I worked in store security for awhile during college with many wannabe cops...they used to brag about beating people up and how they liked to "wail" on the people they arrested at previous jobs. Me and a few other guys were ostracized because we didn't revel in it and actually shook our heads at this kind of talk. "What, you aren't one of US!!!???" Everyone of them fell over themselves to take the SCPD test.

At least 8 out of 15 of them had serious issues with anger..they were bullies, flat out, or had been bullied as kids and were now getting back at the world. Most of them later became SCPD, State Troopers, or NYPD. Of 15 or so guys in our dept, maybe 2 didn't become cops. I'd say maybe 4 of those guys actually should have been cops based on personality. That scares me. Maybe good training toned down this aggressiveness? Maybe they aren't giving people a roughing up for the heck of it now and then?

Another guy I worked with did something sickening and criminal that could have hurt many people..he was let go but no charges were filed. This was a bad guy, no question in my mind. He was NYPD 3 years later. The screening process apparently failed.

I have never been arrested and I've had 4 traffic tickets in 20 years of driving, 2 of them out of state. My "issues" with cops have little to do with my own personal axe to grind because I've been in trouble, I haven't been beaten up by cops arresting me, I don't have a family member in jail, blah blah, all the cliches you'll have hurled at you by cops in internet squabbles.

My issues have everything to do with my perceptions of who many cops are and where they come from. I don't like bullies, plain and simple. I don't like a guy that hands out tickets, yet drives 90 MPH on the LIE and puts me and my family in danger because he can get away with it, then tells me to shove it and that I'm a sucker because I didn't join the gravy train. I don't like a guy who spent the first 30 years of his life living at home having his mom fold his clothes explain to me how people he deals with are irresponsible life forms.

What if Ferrari dude in Quogue had taken me and my kid out while he was showing off to his buddy? The guy killed somebody too, not just himself. When does a tragedy become a crime when incredible carlessness and disregard for other peoples safety comes into play?

Add on to that a heightened level of arrogance that the compensation levels on LI brings, and there it is. Am I talking about all cops? No. Most cops? I hope not. Too many? I think so.

In short, no a race track isn't the answer.
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Old 06-24-2009, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Nassau County, Long Island
240 posts, read 58,443 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
No paragraphs aside, I have no issue with individual cops. I have issues with arrogant people who abuse their power, a type that disproportionately gravitates into police work (and politics), and I feel that you can feel the bad cops out in the way they communicate. You don't communicate like an arrogant cop. Too level headed. You remind me of my uncle, who was a cop for 25 years...level headed, insightful but tough. Not a bully.

I worked and grew up with dozens of people who became cops. More often than not, they had power issues. I worked in store security for awhile during college with many wannabe cops...they used to brag about beating people up and how they liked to "wail" on the people they arrested at previous jobs. Me and a few other guys were ostracized because we didn't revel in it and actually shook our heads at this kind of talk. "What, you aren't one of US!!!???" Everyone of them fell over themselves to take the SCPD test.

At least 8 out of 15 of them had serious issues with anger..they were bullies, flat out, or had been bullied as kids and were now getting back at the world. Most of them later became SCPD, State Troopers, or NYPD. Of 15 or so guys in our dept, maybe 2 didn't become cops. I'd say maybe 4 of those guys actually should have been cops based on personality. That scares me. Maybe good training toned down this aggressiveness? Maybe they aren't giving people a roughing up for the heck of it now and then?

Another guy I worked with did something sickening and criminal that could have hurt many people..he was let go but no charges were filed. This was a bad guy, no question in my mind. He was NYPD 3 years later. The screening process apparently failed.

I have never been arrested and I've had 4 traffic tickets in 20 years of driving, 2 of them out of state. My "issues" with cops have little to do with my own personal axe to grind because I've been in trouble, I haven't been beaten up by cops arresting me, I don't have a family member in jail, blah blah, all the cliches you'll have hurled at you by cops in internet squabbles.

My issues have everything to do with my perceptions of who many cops are and where they come from. I don't like bullies, plain and simple. I don't like a guy that hands out tickets, yet drives 90 MPH on the LIE and puts me and my family in danger because he can get away with it, then tells me to shove it and that I'm a sucker because I didn't join the gravy train. I don't like a guy who spent the first 30 years of his life living at home having his mom fold his clothes explain to me how people he deals with are irresponsible life forms.

What if Ferrari dude in Quogue had taken me and my kid out while he was showing off to his buddy? The guy killed somebody too, not just himself. When does a tragedy become a crime when incredible carlessness and disregard for other peoples safety comes into play?

Add on to that a heightened level of arrogance that the compensation levels on LI brings, and there it is. Am I talking about all cops? No. Most cops? I hope not. Too many? I think so.

In short, no a race track isn't the answer.
For some reason it won't let me add any more reputation points to you because I already did once. But I want to say this is an excellent post and exactly how I feel. Excellent work communicating how those of us who are not skells feel about (not all) some cops.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Suffolk County, NY
875 posts, read 1,492,411 times
Reputation: 444
I have actually said this in the past and will say it again. I will not sit here and try to say all police officers are great people either. There is good and bad in all walks of life. Professions, neighborhoods, races, etc.

Please try to understand that I probably hate cops that abuse their authority or are flat out corrupt more than those of you that never were police officers. Why? Due to the fact that they make the honest officers job that much harder.

I suppose there are police officers whom do become police officers for reasons that you mention. I believe most others take it for better reasons. The reason I personally took the test when I was 18 was due to the fact that I was 18 years old and only had a GED and did not have the money to go to college. At the time I was working two jobs; one as a mechanic for a yellow taxi cab company at night from 10 PM to 7 AM and the other was delivering food at a Pudgie's chicken place from 11 AM until 9 PM. I decided I was not going to do that for the rest of my life so when the police test came out I had decided to take it. I figured that if I did not make it I would join the military. The background investigation went smoothly for me since I had never been in trouble and I had worked since I was 16 years of age with only one three month break between jobs. The investigator told me I would have to wait until I was 21 to get hired. A few months before I turned 21 they called me up and told me to start the Academy the following week.

The reason I looked at NYPD as a good opportunity was at the time the money was not bad (this was just before the NY PBA started taking 0's in the contracts), the benefits were excellent and the twenty year retirement with a pension seemed like a nice thing. As it turns out I had a heart attack at the age of 34 which the city considered job related so I was forced to retire with a disability pension.

One thing I had never understood is how shortly after I was hired they began to require college to become a police officer. I never did and never will understand how someone with college can be considered better as a police officer than someone whom never had any college. The way I see it someone with no college has a better chance of taking the police test for the reasons I did rather than for reasons some of you are suggesting. This is in reference to the NYPD of course. Suffolk County makes excellent money which would make someone with a lot of college whom can get a good job doing something else more than willing to take the police job instead.

I will also tell you that the excellent pension plan is necessary for keeping officers honest. Most would not do anything corrupt even if they wanted to simply because in the back of their mind is the consequences of losing their job which of course means losing their pension. Most officers also would not want to take a chance of going to prison for obvious reasons.
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Old 06-24-2009, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Northwestern Michigan
937 posts, read 1,609,286 times
Reputation: 391
Nice guys, 2 good cops, loved by all, but.....with others depending upon them (wife & children) , willfully engaged in reckless, stupid behavior that left their children fatherless. Cops or not cops, these two were the epitome of stupid, engaging in this type of behavior. I have 2 girls, 10 and 5 years old and cannot imagine EVER being stupid enough to do what these two numbskulls did.
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:22 AM
 
Location: Dead end - Long Island,
999 posts, read 1,189,622 times
Reputation: 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Egobop View Post
You also have to realize that the majority of people are not going to go to a racing facility because they want to learn how to drive better. The average parent is not going to take their teenager there thinking that their child will learn to be a better driver.

The only argument that can really be made for having a racing facility is the fact that it will probably prevent some people whom race on the street from doing so since they have a place to go and race.

To try and say that it will help people that are doing high speeds on the street do so safer and better is not a good argument at all since people should not be doing these speeds on the street to begin with.

If the facility was in place there would be a free course to all the kids in school for drivers ed...
It would put a stop to that dreaded phone call of someones just licensed kid dying from lack of experience.

If the driver in quoge had a place to go, he would have most likely been there...
If he wasn't there everyweek, he might have been there here and there and understood his/her limitations.
If there was a better facility to train police better, maybe there would be less of these instances.
Since from experience in safe conditions you have learned the limits of the vehicle and yourself...
Many people think they understand both.
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:56 AM
 
Location: Dead end - Long Island,
999 posts, read 1,189,622 times
Reputation: 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottzilla View Post
I don't recall seeing you at Bridgehampton before it became a very expensive golf course.
I used to race motorcycles there and it was odd how out of 300 or so racers only a handful were from LI.
It is unlikely having a local racetrack would save lives. This is a stretch.

I didn't live there at bridgehampton, i wasn't there religously, however i did miss the last weekend and was very involved with the fight to keep it open, i also used to check and make sure they were following the courts order, which year after year they broke, and in fact the majority of the racing surface is gone, other then pit out and 1 and 2, some hint of 3.

I don't remember many of the bikes, and i used to come with a few friends trans am, mustang and a porsche, i was living in Queens at the time when i 1st found bridgehampton back in 80 or 81 with a freind, so yes i was not from the island of the mostly club racers there. Also bridgehampton wasn't running drivers ed programs nor was there a org in place to do it.
I moved out to L.I. for the different motorsports, i didn't get much time with them.

Saying having a local facility that has the use of training for free to schools with drivers ed programs wouldn't help save lives is silly, when it is common knowledge that just such facilities and such training in fact does.
Also is the fact that areas with facilities have less tragic situations.
The drivers ed in place now isn't saving anyone, only putting them in harms way.

__________________________________________________ ________


As for the rest of this thread and it's issue with police, my family has atleast 1 person in almost every from of PD, so to say there training is that great is really stretching it, better then the common person, sure, but not stellar.
__________________________________________________ _________


Having a 71mph average for a 2.5 mile road course is not easily achieved, also keep in mind the Average speed is over all laps, including the cautions.
Saying that nascar is in need of training is silly. However without racing many of the safety features built into cars would be un-researched.
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