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Old 05-05-2010, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Placentia
20 posts, read 24,351 times
Reputation: 16

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhBeeHave View Post
The better performance at the disadvantaged school occurs when someone shifts the beans around. Make the magnet school in the disadvantaged school to bring in bright children who might just be of another race or two to prop the numbers and give an appearance of diversity.
I agree. We need initiatives instead of laid back criticism.
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Old 05-05-2010, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Little Babylon
3,564 posts, read 4,543,127 times
Reputation: 1170
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhBeeHave View Post
When bright IB child leaves his 'home hs' to attend the IB program at the magnet school, you are writing that he is bringing an influx of cash to the magnet school. If he is bringing an influx of cash to the magnet school, does that mean the 'home hs' loses money?

So there is no import of mediocre students, but the loss of bright students. Averages will still go down in the school, perhaps not was much as if the bright students were replaced with underachievers.
OBH, The influx of cash comes from the investment in the magnet school program (IB, Engineering, Performing Arts, etc). The home school doesn't lose money, though maybe there is money they'd otherwise get going to the magnet program. So far I haven't seen a lose in our home school.

As far as losing bright students so far that hasn't seemed to happen. There is a limit on the number of students accepted into the magnet school programs and many bright students choose to stay in their home school. My son for example is preparing to go to school for engineering, but he loves Deep Run and it's the center of his social life so he is just taking honors and AP courses. Same for a lot of his friends. So no brain drain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhBeeHave View Post
The better performance at the disadvantaged school occurs when someone shifts the beans around. Make the magnet school in the disadvantaged school to bring in bright children who might just be of another race or two to prop the numbers and give an appearance of diversity.
Yup, that's how that part works. It's ginning up the numbers. One of the theories for taking this approach is that the better performing kids will somehow help the under-performers. That's at least the theory on that. It's a way to achieve what busing attempts to do but supposedly without the downsides. I'm not sure it works but it sure beats forced busing.
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Old 05-06-2010, 01:03 AM
 
1,841 posts, read 1,464,418 times
Reputation: 661
1) Most LIers wouldn't be caught dead sending their kids to less desireable neighborhoods.
2) We have enough issues with public schools now, we don't need to add more levels of complication to an already overbloated system.
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Old 05-06-2010, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Little Babylon
3,564 posts, read 4,543,127 times
Reputation: 1170
Not saying Suffolk should go with the Virginia/county plan, but how is consolidation adding complication to a bloated system?
The Island has some really great schools, great teachers and some excellent admins, but it has a lot of average ones too that are redundant. Given the COL and high taxes Islander's have to find a way to make living on the Island more efficient or else the burden will get greater. Some kind of sensible district consolidation is one way.

And depending on where you live most Islander's live in less desirable neighborhoods. I know CSH looked down on NB, but we in NB also looked down our noble noses on our share of neighborhoods. Sadly, at least it seems to me, the Island went from people who just happened to live in separate towns because of it's rural roots, to suburban Balkanization.
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Old 05-07-2010, 01:36 AM
 
Location: Wellsville, Glurt County
2,846 posts, read 6,281,907 times
Reputation: 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coney View Post
If we make it all multi-dwelling, even more people with children will leave. Most people in that stage of life want Another Pleasant Valley Sunday (The Monkees).

As to the poster who said that LI is culturally dead, that's true if you are 25 and your idea of a good time is drinking, listening to contemporary music, a comedy club, or searching for a date. However, if your idea of culture is making big bubbles at the LI Children's Museum, playing Marco Polo at the town pool, digging sand with your pail and shovel, painting a ceramic fish, or picking pumpkins in the fall, you will be a satisfied citizen.
Great post. Young families are always going to be looking for that same thing. Great song too

I don't think anybody is saying we should make LI "all multi-dwelling" though. Given the near 100% built-out suburban landscape, I don't think it's really possible either.....but young people are definitely leaving LI, and if that trend continues we'll have big problems on our hands. Those who stay are relegated to crappy basement apartments or stuck with their parents. We've already got more than enough single family, detached homes and strip malls for everybody who would ever possibly want them. I think with the remaining development opportunities we should be trying to create more diverse housing, entertainment and commercial options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crookhaven View Post
Are you really really really sure Sean?

Its not an exodus as much as an influx.
That you cant deny.

Long Island is compelling for very different reasons these days.
Namely for folks whove been priced out of the city.

Im not saying its over....just saying its different.
Perhaps the post gentified boroughs will reflect favorably on our fair Isle?

As for now I see a line that blurs every day and the Boroughs gains over the past 10 years have very much been at the Islands loss.

Im not sure if the Levitt/Moses vision has withstood the test of time.
History will be our judge.

Crooks
Crooks I don't think you're even sure what you're trying to say at this point. I certainly can deny that there is an "influx" of middle class, suburban families from Nassau & Suffolk relocating to Brooklyn because that is just totally ridiculous and not happening outside of a very small handful of exceptions, if any at all. Show me anything that supports your theory, even one person's testimonial about what a positive experience it has been uprooting their family from Commack to a neighborhood where you can buy loosey Newports and Grape Nehi and I'll deem you victorious in this completely moronic debate. You know that if even like 3 families from LI moved onto one block in BK there would be an article about it in the NY Times real estate section every single week. It's just not happening, and certainly not now - in 2010 - a good 3+ years removed from the height of Brooklyn's "gentrification" heyday.

As for Levitt and Moses, that's what we could use more of right now. Whether their vision was right or wrong, they HAD some vision and did something about it. They didn't sit around for 7 years waiting for some small cheese municipality to give the green light on an environmental impact study....they just thought it up and then built it.

BTW I think the work of both has held up remarkably well. The LI Parkway system was designed in the 1920s and is still very usable well beyond a capacity that anyone could have ever imagined it being inundated with 90 years ago, and though Levittown was predicted to become a total ghetto within a decade upon it's construction, here we are almost 70 years later and it's still one of the best affordable neighborhoods in Nassau County. The argument from ultra left wing urban planning people is that the likes of Moses & Levitt were too "car-centric" and should have instead developed means of public transportation.....well, NYC and Long Island already had a superb public transit system at that time. NYC still does, don't blame Moses and Levitt for ruining it on LI, blame all the idiots that took it apart piece by piece long after they were dead (that means us and the generations before us who equated trains and buses with urban blight).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyKid View Post
Keep taking extended breaks from posting here... sorry for the lack of continuity of thought process. Yeah, I got that from your post - I tried to be clear that I knew you didn't say those exact words and I took some assumptions.

We could have a lengthy discussion, but I don't think I can disagree that some major "thing" hasn't changed that drastically in 40 years. That could be the very root of the problem... 40 or so years post development boom and you just really have the same thing across the whole middle of LI with a few layers of grime.
Absolutely! The only difference I see between Nassau County right now and Nassau County 40 years ago is that we've lost basically every large corporation we once had, we pay our civil servants a ludicrous amount of money and there are more cars on the road. Everything else is aesthetic and not at all unique to LI (ie: chrome bumpers giving way to plastic, shingle siding giving way to vinyl). The population is identical (less, actually), the housing stock is identical and the infrastructure is identical. This didn't happen by accident, either. "Change" has been a four letter word on LI since the suburbs were first built.....ironic considering what a massive "change" their construction was in the first place. The reason we had so many large corporations and jobs out here back in those days is because LI was viewed as an up and coming area, now it's just stagnant and expensive. Our entire culture and government is devoted to foolishly standing in the way of the natural course of evolution. That system has been mildly successful at keeping an aging suburb locked in a time vortex, but not very successful at anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkStreetKid View Post
Don't bet on it Sean. The Island was different way back when and had more of an identity separate from the city. Much of that is now lost in my opinion and the Island has less unity than it did in the past. No identity, no unity, no change.
Sounds pretty vague and ambiguous to me. No one thinks Long Island and New York City are the same thing, at least no one who actually lives here. Wanna give it a second shot? What exactly is different now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverBulletZ06 View Post
Taxes are the major problem with all of LI. We can't get business in here because the high taxes mean significantly higher wages, which means less jobs to tax, which leads to higher taxes. I personally think we should get all of our elected officials on Sim City before entering office to figure out the Laffer Curve. So far we've driven out 19% of our younger crowd, a figure that is not going to get smaller. In another decade we'll have a tax gap due to those people not coming into the island, further emphasizing the tax disparity, and we'll be seeing larger problems island-wide.
LOL @ "Sim City" but sadly you are 100% correct. People aren't making enough at their jobs to keep up with the taxes. The taxes are driving all the good jobs off the island. Effed on both ends....

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhBeeHave View Post
I think pigs will fly first. Certain areas have name recognition. I doubt the Old Field parent is going to want their bright child graduating from Wm Floyd HS in order to make their grades look better.

The PJS thread which was started a couple of days ago indicates problems Comsewogue is having (and according to Comsewogue alum on the cd boad has had for years) What is the point in mixing problems into a school where those problems don't exist on such a level, or perhaps not at all?

You've mentioned traveling school psychologists, pooled resources, etc., and that makes perfectly good sense financially, but I would have to ask (in the case of the psychologists and other specialists) is something on the personal level lost if the psychologist has a multitude of cases?
A complete countywide merger of school districts would be a disaster for Long Island.

Our three biggest positives are location, safety and education. Those are the reasons people move (and stay) here. It's not just a coincidence that a house in Garden City costs $800,000 while an identical one on the other side of the border in Hempstead costs $400,000. Right or wrong, nobody wants their kids going to school at one of the handful of truly awful schools we have in truly awful neighborhoods. There is no amount of financial savings that will make that beneficial on the whole.

Long Island is not Virginia or North Carolina or whatever other place has one massive school district for the county. Why are we even talking about trying to screw up the one thing most folks agree has been successful?

Now on the other hand, if we could somehow establish a countywide administrative layer for every district, that would be fantastic. That's where most of the waste is, and as others mentioned it would mean vastly improved "purchasing power". NYC schools (which have 8x as many students) somehow do fine with one superintendent. We don't need 150+ of them....but if we can't have one without the other, I'd rather the district boundaries stay what they are and not risk messing up a good thing.
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Little Babylon
3,564 posts, read 4,543,127 times
Reputation: 1170
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean View Post
Sounds pretty vague and ambiguous to me. No one thinks Long Island and New York City are the same thing, at least no one who actually lives here. Wanna give it a second shot? What exactly is different now?
I didn't say NYC and the Island are now the same, I said, "had more of an identity separate from the city". In the past the Island was a leader in aerospace and technology, most of which is now gone. So while the Island has always been a suburb of NYC, it also used to have a healthy business sector separate from the city to sustain itself. Heck, I know of engineers who went to school on the Island, worked their entire lives on the Island, and even started companies on Island. What's the Island known for now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean View Post
"Change" has been a four letter word on LI since the suburbs were first built.....ironic considering what a massive "change" their construction was in the first place. The reason we had so many large corporations and jobs out here back in those days is because LI was viewed as an up and coming area, now it's just stagnant and expensive.
That nails it pretty well. The Island was very succesful for decades but one problem with that success was that no one wanted any change. Think of the roads to nowhere (rt 231, SOB), projects started and then dropped, the mess of the Light House. The Island should have been changing while times were good, it didn't and is now paying the price.
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:47 AM
 
7,658 posts, read 11,111,699 times
Reputation: 1221
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkStreetKid View Post
I didn't say NYC and the Island are now the same, I said, "had more of an identity separate from the city". In the past the Island was a leader in aerospace and technology, most of which is now gone. So while the Island has always been a suburb of NYC, it also used to have a healthy business sector separate from the city to sustain itself. Heck, I know of engineers who went to school on the Island, worked their entire lives on the Island, and even started companies on Island. What's the Island known for now?



That nails it pretty well. The Island was very succesful for decades but one problem with that success was that no one wanted any change. Think of the roads to nowhere (rt 231, SOB), projects started and then dropped, the mess of the Light House. The Island should have been changing while times were good, it didn't and is now paying the price.

Exactly.
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:52 AM
 
7,658 posts, read 11,111,699 times
Reputation: 1221
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean View Post
Great post. Young families are always going to be looking for that same thing. Great song too

I don't think anybody is saying we should make LI "all multi-dwelling" though. Given the near 100% built-out suburban landscape, I don't think it's really possible either.....but young people are definitely leaving LI, and if that trend continues we'll have big problems on our hands. Those who stay are relegated to crappy basement apartments or stuck with their parents. We've already got more than enough single family, detached homes and strip malls for everybody who would ever possibly want them. I think with the remaining development opportunities we should be trying to create more diverse housing, entertainment and commercial options.



Crooks I don't think you're even sure what you're trying to say at this point. I certainly can deny that there is an "influx" of middle class, suburban families from Nassau & Suffolk relocating to Brooklyn because that is just totally ridiculous and not happening outside of a very small handful of exceptions, if any at all. Show me anything that supports your theory, even one person's testimonial about what a positive experience it has been uprooting their family from Commack to a neighborhood where you can buy loosey Newports and Grape Nehi and I'll deem you victorious in this completely moronic debate. You know that if even like 3 families from LI moved onto one block in BK there would be an article about it in the NY Times real estate section every single week. It's just not happening, and certainly not now - in 2010 - a good 3+ years removed from the height of Brooklyn's "gentrification" heyday.

As for Levitt and Moses, that's what we could use more of right now. Whether their vision was right or wrong, they HAD some vision and did something about it. They didn't sit around for 7 years waiting for some small cheese municipality to give the green light on an environmental impact study....they just thought it up and then built it.

BTW I think the work of both has held up remarkably well. The LI Parkway system was designed in the 1920s and is still very usable well beyond a capacity that anyone could have ever imagined it being inundated with 90 years ago, and though Levittown was predicted to become a total ghetto within a decade upon it's construction, here we are almost 70 years later and it's still one of the best affordable neighborhoods in Nassau County. The argument from ultra left wing urban planning people is that the likes of Moses & Levitt were too "car-centric" and should have instead developed means of public transportation.....well, NYC and Long Island already had a superb public transit system at that time. NYC still does, don't blame Moses and Levitt for ruining it on LI, blame all the idiots that took it apart piece by piece long after they were dead (that means us and the generations before us who equated trains and buses with urban blight).



Absolutely! The only difference I see between Nassau County right now and Nassau County 40 years ago is that we've lost basically every large corporation we once had, we pay our civil servants a ludicrous amount of money and there are more cars on the road. Everything else is aesthetic and not at all unique to LI (ie: chrome bumpers giving way to plastic, shingle siding giving way to vinyl). The population is identical (less, actually), the housing stock is identical and the infrastructure is identical. This didn't happen by accident, either. "Change" has been a four letter word on LI since the suburbs were first built.....ironic considering what a massive "change" their construction was in the first place. The reason we had so many large corporations and jobs out here back in those days is because LI was viewed as an up and coming area, now it's just stagnant and expensive. Our entire culture and government is devoted to foolishly standing in the way of the natural course of evolution. That system has been mildly successful at keeping an aging suburb locked in a time vortex, but not very successful at anything else.



Sounds pretty vague and ambiguous to me. No one thinks Long Island and New York City are the same thing, at least no one who actually lives here. Wanna give it a second shot? What exactly is different now?



LOL @ "Sim City" but sadly you are 100% correct. People aren't making enough at their jobs to keep up with the taxes. The taxes are driving all the good jobs off the island. Effed on both ends....



A complete countywide merger of school districts would be a disaster for Long Island.

Our three biggest positives are location, safety and education. Those are the reasons people move (and stay) here. It's not just a coincidence that a house in Garden City costs $800,000 while an identical one on the other side of the border in Hempstead costs $400,000. Right or wrong, nobody wants their kids going to school at one of the handful of truly awful schools we have in truly awful neighborhoods. There is no amount of financial savings that will make that beneficial on the whole.

Long Island is not Virginia or North Carolina or whatever other place has one massive school district for the county. Why are we even talking about trying to screw up the one thing most folks agree has been successful?

Now on the other hand, if we could somehow establish a countywide administrative layer for every district, that would be fantastic. That's where most of the waste is, and as others mentioned it would mean vastly improved "purchasing power". NYC schools (which have 8x as many students) somehow do fine with one superintendent. We don't need 150+ of them....but if we can't have one without the other, I'd rather the district boundaries stay what they are and not risk messing up a good thing.
PLEN-T-POST of the day.
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Old 05-07-2010, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Inis Fada
13,913 posts, read 16,541,430 times
Reputation: 4717
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean View Post
As for Levitt and Moses, that's what we could use more of right now. Whether their vision was right or wrong, they HAD some vision and did something about it. They didn't sit around for 7 years waiting for some small cheese municipality to give the green light on an environmental impact study....they just thought it up and then built it.

BTW I think the work of both has held up remarkably well. The LI Parkway system was designed in the 1920s and is still very usable well beyond a capacity that anyone could have ever imagined it being inundated with 90 years ago, and though Levittown was predicted to become a total ghetto within a decade upon it's construction, here we are almost 70 years later and it's still one of the best affordable neighborhoods in Nassau County. The argument from ultra left wing urban planning people is that the likes of Moses & Levitt were too "car-centric" and should have instead developed means of public transportation.....well, NYC and Long Island already had a superb public transit system at that time. NYC still does, don't blame Moses and Levitt for ruining it on LI, blame all the idiots that took it apart piece by piece long after they were dead (that means us and the generations before us who equated trains and buses with urban blight).
Moses steamrolled his projects through, abused eminent domain and disregarded the people. Moses was a study in hubris.

His Cross Bronx Expressway is one of the reasons (early on) given for the decline of the Bronx. His parkway designs were such as to keep buses of city people (specifically black people) from utilizing his parks. The beaches -- Robert Moses, Jones Beach and Jacob Riis were his 'whites only' playgrounds. His car-centric approach alienated the poor. His projects dislocated over 500,000 people, and he stands accused as the reason the Dodgers left Brooklyn. The Dodgers wanted to relocate to the area where the Nets project is now planned, but Moses had other ideas.

Granted he is behind Lincoln Center; but that was part of an 'Urban Renewal' -- who do you think was being displaced to create an arts playground for the wealthy?

Another thing to bear in mind was that Levitt had clauses that prevented anyone of color from buying within the original Levittown.

Given that LI is a rainbow of people and built out, would you really want two planners such as them, now?
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Old 05-07-2010, 01:20 PM
 
99 posts, read 162,390 times
Reputation: 33
Hi, I noticed my posting calling LI culturally dead has raised some ire. The thing is that even families benefit from things going on, and there are a lot of people raising children in the city now. If we had some more condos/downtown areas perhaps we would not have to lose young people to the city in the first place. I find that even with trade type things.. Like suppose you go on meetup.com and look around for professional/entrepreneurial things they are almost all in the city.

Now I know NYC is one of the hubs of the world and you would expect that to happen, but I just do not sense anything at all going on over here anymore. Like LI is not a happening place for social gatherings, professional gatherings etc. So it is not just that I want to go drink $30 drinks at 1Oak in the city (I don't!), it is that there is not much going on either for young families, or even people that are older and still want to be active. And if we keep providing no place for younger people and creative types to thrive, they are all going to leave. Maybe they will come back and have kids out here, but maybe not.

Young families are the reason LI has risen from farmland to suburbia. Homes were cheap out here so people moved out here, started businesses, created jobs etc. Now we have McMansion/gated community types living on credit, tons of dense housing for 55+, plenty of crappy illegal basement apartments, Big Box stores, cvs, chain restaurants. Why not give them somewhere to live and they can trade up to single family home later on or something.

I agree that as one gets older and has children etc priorities change a lot, but everyone benefits from diversity. Middle class is still strong here, but employment base is dropping and not much new is happening. That is bad for the future and we need to keep the entrepreneurial and creative types out here somehow.
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