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Ronald Reagan, Horace Greeley, Daniel O'Connell (dem leader in albany), Ruth Ann Minner (Delaware governor)
Thats a classic list: Three dead politicians and one 75 year old former gov. Pulling 6 names (if you include GW and BF) from all of American History is not a strong argument. By the way Washington was always embarassed by his lack of education-it was one reason he was so reluctant to speak in public (Gordon Wood "The Greatness of GW").
Jdawg you clearly dislike teachers for whatever reason (too high salary, too much time off) but that had to be your weakest argument yet.
By the way - to all Long Island teachers: Thank you from a parent of two who appreciates everything you do.
I am in a union. We are all classified as "FLAS: exempt" being engineers. But due to our contract with the company we receive overtime. There is nothing stopping exempt employees from getting overtime. It is just not mandated that they receive it like non-exempt
In fact I believe this is what tipped I_LOVE_LI_BUT off that I am in a union.
If you want "to pull this off" join or start a union.
^^Which means you negotiated a separate pay for hours worked in excess of a set amount. This is not overtime, this is differential pay negotiated through an employment contract. So you are technically paid separately at a pre-negotiated rate of pay. And this is all HR/labor law BS which probably interests few...You are technically not paid overtime, though I do understand why it would be referred as such. Exempt employees do not qualify for OT...New York state labor laws is what is "stopping" it. And where you would still have a case is if the company is technically treating you as non-exempt professionals (which they are), you are likely owed OT in some cases outside of your union contract. Think about each day you leave 5, maybe 10 minutes after the standard work day...bling bling...ca ching
Thats a classic list: Three dead politicians and one 75 year old former gov. Pulling 6 names (if you include GW and BF) from all of American History is not a strong argument. By the way Washington was always embarassed by his lack of education-it was one reason he was so reluctant to speak in public (Gordon Wood "The Greatness of GW").
Jdawg you clearly dislike teachers for whatever reason (too high salary, too much time off) but that had to be your weakest argument yet.
By the way - to all Long Island teachers: Thank you from a parent of two who appreciates everything you do.
Let's not get carried away. A small % of teachers in LI schools are bona-fide duds. Be careful with that all encompassing word. I'm quite familiar with my wifes co-workers (she's a teacher), and they know who the people simply collecting pay checks are. The school tries to build a case against them and put pressure on them, but it takes a long time.
Let's not get carried away. A small % of teachers in LI schools are bona-fide duds. Be careful with that all encompassing word. I'm quite familiar with my wifes co-workers (she's a teacher), and they know who the people simply collecting pay checks are. The school tries to build a case against them and put pressure on them, but it takes a long time.
You are right.
And that's the thing. People put all this emphasis on how great teachers are and how much they are making a difference and yadda yadda. Yes, teachers CAN make a difference...however NOT ALL teachers do...and teachers are not the only profession that can & does either.
For example, if you are sick, and a doctor cures you...is that not rewarding? Did that not make a difference in your life?
What if you are on trial and you are innocent...and the lawyer wins your case and you are free? is that not rewarding? Does that not make a difference?
What about the mom & pop store that advertises and suddenly sees a boom in the # of customers they receive? Is that not rewarding? Does that not make a differerence?
I do not dislike teachers. I admire what they do...but people need to realise that other jobs are just as important and other people work hard and make a difference too.
Last edited by Jdawg8181; 10-09-2009 at 09:54 AM..
Let's not get carried away. A small % of teachers in LI schools are bona-fide duds. Be careful with that all encompassing word. I'm quite familiar with my wifes co-workers (she's a teacher), and they know who the people simply collecting pay checks are. The school tries to build a case against them and put pressure on them, but it takes a long time.
As someone who went to LI public schools from K-12, I have to say that I never had any complaints with a single teacher (and you all know how critical I can be). I found all my teachers (and once I was beyond grade 6, I had several per day) to be competent and professional in all respects. Maybe I cannot really pinpoint the situation in the early grades since it is so long ago, but I have no bad memories that stick out about any teacher from that time period.
As for getting rid of the duds, that is a definite problem and that is why people who are professionals should not be in unions, but should be subjected to higher standards than most occupations are (and, ironically, all non-unionized private sector non-professionals are subjected to), which includes no guarantees of lifetime employment and performance-based decisions on raises and dismissals. Unions demand last hired, first fired, for the high school graduate garbage man or the teacher with a masters degree who is educating children.
I would say that dud teachers who are merely ineffectual and don't actually do anything criminal or outrageous will NOT get fired and will be allowed to coast until retirement because the school district knows how hard it will be to get rid of them. Meanwhile, when layoff time comes, the newest teachers, no matter how stellar their performance is, are dismissed. That is a screwed up way of doing things IMO.
And that's the thing. People put all this emphasis on how great teachers are and how much they are making a difference and yadda yadda. Yes, teachers CAN make a difference...however NOT ALL teachers do...and teachers are not the only profession that can & does either.
For example, if you are sick, and a doctor cures you...is that not rewarding? Did that not make a difference in your life?
What if you are on trial and you are innocent...and the lawyer wins your case and you are free? is that not rewarding? Does that not make a difference?
What about the mom & pop store that advertises and suddenly sees a boom in the # of customers they receive? Is that not rewarding? Does that not make a differerence?
I do not dislike teachers. I admire what they do...but people need to realise that other jobs are just as important and other people work hard and make a difference too.
And who exactly said that other professions aren't rewarding? You're arguing against a complete strawman.
As someone who went to LI public schools from K-12, I have to say that I never had any complaints with a single teacher (and you all know how critical I can be). I found all my teachers (and once I was beyond grade 6, I had several per day) to be competent and professional in all respects. Maybe I cannot really pinpoint the situation in the early grades since it is so long ago, but I have no bad memories that stick out about any teacher from that time period.
As for getting rid of the duds, that is a definite problem and that is why people who are professionals should not be in unions, but should be subjected to higher standards than most occupations are (and, ironically, all non-unionized private sector non-professionals are subjected to), which includes no guarantees of lifetime employment and performance-based decisions on raises and dismissals. Unions demand last hired, first fired, for the high school graduate garbage man or the teacher with a masters degree who is educating children.
I would say that dud teachers who are merely ineffectual and don't actually do anything criminal or outrageous will NOT get fired and will be allowed to coast until retirement because the school district knows how hard it will be to get rid of them. Meanwhile, when layoff time comes, the newest teachers, no matter how stellar their performance is, are dismissed. That is a screwed up way of doing things IMO.
K through 12, let me think..out of 7 elementary school teachers, one was a drunk, the others I would call anywhere from competent to great..
..in middle and secondary schools, maybe a half dozen duds, dozens of competent, and half dozen or so very good or great.
So, like I said...maybe 5% of teachers stink, in my experience. Pretty much the same as in any job. Of course these people shouldn't be in the job. The issue with no unions is that the other side of the coin is the school district excessing the older teachers every few years simply to keep payroll down.
As someone who went to LI public schools from K-12, I have to say that I never had any complaints with a single teacher (and you all know how critical I can be). I found all my teachers (and once I was beyond grade 6, I had several per day) to be competent and professional in all respects. Maybe I cannot really pinpoint the situation in the early grades since it is so long ago, but I have no bad memories that stick out about any teacher from that time period.
Wow are you lucky - I too went to public school K-12 and I can think of 5 teachers right off the bat who sucked. There was the always drunk 9th grade history teacher who never - not once - handed back a paper that we did, or a test that we took. Then there was the pedophile shop teacher. Then there were the anal-retentive/OCDs - there were a lot of them come to think of it - who could only get thru the day if their students rigidly held to a set of standards they chose. Fine for some subjects, not so much for others. Then there was the creative writing teacher who loved to talk, so much that I think I actually did maybe 2 papers all year becuase she was always talking instead of teaching.
Teaching is like any other profession, some are great, most are good, some ....welll it's a head-scratcher how they even thought to make it a career.
So, like I said...maybe 5% of teachers stink, in my experience. Pretty much the same as in any job. Of course these people shouldn't be in the job. The issue with no unions is that the other side of the coin is the school district excessing the older teachers every few years simply to keep payroll down.
It's not easy to do that and get away with it because Federal Title VII deems age discrimination of anyone above age 40 against the law, since they are a protected class in terms of employment discrimination. If schools (or anyone) made a practice of that, it would be apparent and leave them open to individual lawsuits, class action lawsuits, and disciplinary action like fines.
^^Which means you negotiated a separate pay for hours worked in excess of a set amount. This is not overtime, this is differential pay negotiated through an employment contract. So you are technically paid separately at a pre-negotiated rate of pay. And this is all HR/labor law BS which probably interests few...You are technically not paid overtime, though I do understand why it would be referred as such. Exempt employees do not qualify for OT...New York state labor laws is what is "stopping" it. And where you would still have a case is if the company is technically treating you as non-exempt professionals (which they are), you are likely owed OT in some cases outside of your union contract. Think about each day you leave 5, maybe 10 minutes after the standard work day...bling bling...ca ching
The word overtime is used in our contract and is the line item on my pay stub.
The non-union exempt employees get over time as well. But they have to give 5 hours before is kicks in. In other words they get their weekly pay plus overtime for anything over 45 hours. So it's not just a union thing.
And since we are to charge our time to contracts, if we did leave 10 mins late it would be noted and we would be paid for it. Since we charge our time personally it would be our fault if our work hours are not tracked correctly, and it can get you fired for doing not porrectly charging.
I am far from a hr expert but I don't work for some mom and pop shop. We are a large corp and this is the way it works.
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