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Old 12-09-2009, 02:12 PM
 
13,507 posts, read 16,984,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azzurrony View Post
Dman,

First off, not all charter schools have selective admissions and they still outperform public school equivalents. Some are in such high demand that they have to have lotteries for students to get in. Sometimes it's just luck.

Secondly, charter schools in poor areas aren't exactly getting Harvard bound students. They are getting troubled youth as well from tough areas. They just are doing more with them. I don't think it is fair to compare test scores of charter schools with public schools. There are too many variables. But, it is fair to ask why competition is a bad thing for most teachers.

In the end, you're missing my point about charter schools. Even if they can be more selective than public schools, the question becomes why? Why are they more attractive to parents in the first place? Could it be because they are run in a much better manner than public schools? Could it be because parents know that teachers there are accountable and will make sure their kid can read and write?

Why are public school teachers so afraid of competition? There can only be one reason. They have a monopoly right now and they want to keep it. It is all about the self interest and benefit of the teacher/administrator and not the student. There is no way you can argue otherwise. If teachers and unions had students best interest at heart, they wouldn't have nepotism, they wouldn't break the bank (allowing for more $ to go to infrastructure), and they would allow easier terminations for bad teachers.
The parents in charter school areas want to get their kids out of a war zone, that's why they are so attractive. You don't have people in the top half districts on LI complaining about education for the most part..they maybe complaining about what it costs, but not what is offered their kids.

The public school system in the US worked for a long time, and in my opinion in places like LI it still works..it just costs too much. Instead of trying to level the whole thing based on a right wing "privatize everything" philosophy, why not simply get it back to where it was by using our heads?

Public school teachers are afraid of competition and have a monopoly. Okay, there's one ideology.

Right wingers have disdain for public education and don't think they should have to pay for poor kids education. That's the other side of it, and it's a motivation for at least some of the conservative lashing out at teachers and the mantra about "vouchers" and "competition".
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Old 12-09-2009, 02:13 PM
 
13,507 posts, read 16,984,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azzurrony View Post
Honestly, it boggles my mind, that in a country as competitive as the USA, that we find it acceptable to have full fledged monopolies running our schools.

Monopolies do nothing other than allow their owner to profit. They inhibit competition (and therefore innovation), they drive the price of services upward, and they stagnate because they have no one challenging them.

America panics everytime they see anti-trust violations, and yet our schools are in the strangleholds of these unions. It's amazing really.

Sounds like the military.
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Old 12-09-2009, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Long Island (chief in S Farmingdale)
22,141 posts, read 19,374,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azzurrony View Post
Per Newsday (spending per student):

Central Islip $18,338
Uniondale $18,027
Roosevelt $18,020
Wyandanch $17,370
Garden City $17,325
Cold Spring $16,932


What's wrong with this picture???

The average district IIRC is upwards of $20,000, also once you take into factors such as the various lunch programs, and things of that ilk which address the poverty issues of those districts which come from the per pupil spending you see some of the differences.
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Old 12-09-2009, 02:26 PM
 
964 posts, read 2,457,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
Sounds like the military.
Agreed
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Old 12-09-2009, 02:27 PM
 
Location: under the beautiful Carolina blue
22,647 posts, read 36,624,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
Boy, this is a strange argument you are making. Universities are over-saturated with qualified LI applicants, so we should make the schools worse so more can get it?



I'll have to admit, this is a new one.
Where did I make the argument that schools should be made worse? I'm saying the gap is closing and it's not a shoe-in like it once was for LI kids to get where they want to go. Walk into almost any school on Long Island and it's embarrassment what it looks like. That's because the money has never gone to schools - we need to float a bond for that. When teachers are routinely making over $100K a year -which BTW works out to about $100 an hour for the amount they work - something is wrong.

I'm saying that unless you are a teacher or have a spouse that is one (like you) people need to stop drinking the "Long Island schools are God like" Kool Aid. The mere fact that you misread my post is proof enough
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Old 12-09-2009, 02:33 PM
 
Location: under the beautiful Carolina blue
22,647 posts, read 36,624,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post

The public school system in the US worked for a long time, and in my opinion in places like LI it still works...
Of course you think nothing should change. Your wife is a teacher. But it's NOT working. People can't afford for it to keep on the way it is.

Bottom line here is everyone wants their taxes to go down, but as soon as we start talking about district consolidation so we don't have 126 superintendents make $250K a year, people start flipping out. So, no, it's never going to change. We are our own worst enemies.
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Old 12-09-2009, 02:33 PM
 
964 posts, read 2,457,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
The parents in charter school areas want to get their kids out of a war zone, that's why they are so attractive. You don't have people in the top half districts on LI complaining about education for the most part..they maybe complaining about what it costs, but not what is offered their kids.

The public school system in the US worked for a long time, and in my opinion in places like LI it still works..it just costs too much. Instead of trying to level the whole thing based on a right wing "privatize everything" philosophy, why not simply get it back to where it was by using our heads?

Public school teachers are afraid of competition and have a monopoly. Okay, there's one ideology.

Right wingers have disdain for public education and don't think they should have to pay for poor kids education. That's the other side of it, and it's a motivation for at least some of the conservative lashing out at teachers and the mantra about "vouchers" and "competition".
Where did I say I wanted to privatize schools? Private schools have been around for a long time. I simply want to stop the Golden Treasure Chest being given to public schools and allow parents to have more control over where their kids go. Will some schools fail? Sure..but that's a GOOD thing. They deserve to fail. Under the current public school model, we pour millions into our system with so little to show for it. Isn't it time to look at more competition? No one is saying tear down the public school system...what we are saying is that we want it to be more accountable.

I simply want to introduce competition for the public schools. I don't hate public schools at all. I'm a product of a PA public school. This isn't about politics. It's about doing the right thing here.

Also, ending the stranglehold of the teacher unions is not some sort of "right wing" political dream. It's the dream of many Americans who want greater accountability for all the money they put into their public schools.
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Old 12-09-2009, 02:36 PM
 
13,507 posts, read 16,984,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twingles View Post
ME TOO~!!

I don't know the answer to this question, but I think the tide is starting to turn. A couple of years ago there was an article in Newsday about parents being so-o-o-o upset that the little darlings weren't getting into "top" colleges because of the saturation factor of Long Island kids at these schools. It's almost like being from LI is now working against people - if Harvard has 10 spots open and 10 kids from Long Island qualified to get in, and 1 kid from Wyoming, guess who is getting the 10th spot? And although people from LI just can't accept it, the performance gap is closing and schools elsewhere are offering the same and sometimes better and more up-to-date choices. Yes, it's true, most LI school districts will never see a cut in the arts, library, sports, or bussing...but how much is it all REALLY worth?
This is the original post. Nothing misread. You said that there was an article about LI kids not getting into top schools because so many other kids from LI are qualified. Ok, that's a couple of years ago, and there's not many people who would take that to mean anything other than that the students exceed other areas in the country..that means the schools are at least okay, right, or do we just breed geniuses here?

Then you go on to say they are slipping, and offer no evidence to support that.

So, you provide evidence that the schools are good, but then say they are slipping, and offer no support, then and bow out.

And you're questioning my education?
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Old 12-09-2009, 02:38 PM
 
964 posts, read 2,457,012 times
Reputation: 389
Quote:
Originally Posted by twingles View Post
Of course you think nothing should change. Your wife is a teacher. But it's NOT working. People can't afford for it to keep on the way it is.

Bottom line here is everyone wants their taxes to go down, but as soon as we start talking about district consolidation so we don't have 126 superintendents make $250K a year, people start flipping out. So, no, it's never going to change. We are our own worst enemies.
To be fair to Dman, he does advocate some small cuts in compensation for teachers. I just don't think it goes far enough. He also doesn't seem to like the idea of teacher accountability either. I disagree there too.

He does want nepotism to stop. Unfortunately, if we perpetuate the status quo, it won't.
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Old 12-09-2009, 02:44 PM
 
13,507 posts, read 16,984,042 times
Reputation: 9688
Quote:
Originally Posted by azzurrony View Post
Where did I say I wanted to privatize schools? Private schools have been around for a long time. I simply want to stop the Golden Treasure Chest being given to public schools and allow parents to have more control over where their kids go. Will some schools fail? Sure..but that's a GOOD thing. They deserve to fail. Under the current public school model, we pour millions into our system with so little to show for it. Isn't it time to look at more competition? No one is saying tear down the public school system...what we are saying is that we want it to be more accountable.

I simply want to introduce competition for the public schools. I don't hate public schools at all. I'm a product of a PA public school. This isn't about politics. It's about doing the right thing here.

Also, ending the stranglehold of the teacher unions is not some sort of "right wing" political dream. It's the dream of many Americans who want greater accountability for all the money they put into their public schools.
There's a very simple way to end golden treasure chest..elect school board members who won't sign contracts with increases. Nobody wants to be bothered doing that..they want to be able to flick a switch and see a bunch of people fired. This isn't about accountabilty or education, it's about money. People want to pay less. Period. The quality of the schools is red herring that people throw up as a argumentation tactic. Apart from the bottom feeding districts, we don't have problems with our schools here (see Twingles post about LI kids and college admissions). A lot of people try to attribute NYC problems to our schools..charter schools, failing schools, all that stuff..what are talking about, 4 districts on LI, maybe? Those are code words that don't have a lot of meaning here. "Our schools are failing, so says I!!" Ok O'Reilly, where do you live again, Merrick? School ain't failing there bro.

I understand..LI taxes are too high, but why do we have to make up a crisis about bad LI schools to support that argument..they are too high, period.
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