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Try teaching and then go back and re-read some of these things you are writing.
You can't speak about it until you can see it from a teacher's daily life.
They would be singing a different tune if only they COULD walk a mile in a teacher's shoes. So many dissenters, my my...you go into a classroom with 30 children for a day and see how it feels!! Especially if the kids are hell-bent on getting away with anything they can, a prevalent attitude. Where, oh where did they get that from? You say TV, I say bad parenting. But that's an entirely different subject. I look at these teacher-bashing threads and see adults crying and complaining about everything they disagree with. Then you see the children crying and complaining about everything they disagree with. Where did they learn that, teacher-bashers? Look in a mirror for the apples don't fall far from the trees.
Waah! Waah! Waahhhh! WAAAHHHH! Let me call a wahmbulance!
My aunt worked for 26 years as a teacher and loved her work and never complained about the kids. Her attitude was "kids will be kids." And she worked in a state where there were no teachers' unions running the show! Her last principal actually had no school experience but was a business executive and wanted to run the school like a business, which she did ... in addition to teaching, the teachers had to attend after-school meetings, give presentations, etc. ... a lot more work and for absolutely no more pay. Most of the teachers were not into this at all, but since my uncle owned a business, my aunt took it better than the rest of them since she understood more about it. (She is still in touch with her old boss, who was kicked up the ladder to administration after my aunt retired.)
Actually I have and they read about the same as every contract I have worked for as far as work rules. A little shy in some areas and better in others but that is to be expected. As they bargain for and trade away things to fit their specific job needs and wants. Being from the airlines I will NEVER advocate any working class individual take a pay cut or any concessions for that matter. Perhaps in that sense I am a bit biased but looking over the teachers pay and compensation packages in relation to the requirenments for the job I cannot honestly say they are the problem. Most teachers are not at those top rates that are continuously pushed by agenda driven news sources.
You're right. My real problem is with the NYS taxpayer funded pensions and health care benefits after retirement when the taxpayers have 401(k)s and go on Medicare when they are old. That is costing us too much and are both outdated policies. This also pertains to all NYS public employees, not just teachers by any means.
Another problem, this one peculiar to LI schools, is that there are over 100 school districts on LI and each need to have a bunch of administrators, superintendents, purchasing departments, support personnel, etc. The fact that there is ONE Department of Education is probably why the schools in NYC cost the taxpayers a lot less than on LI, even though their teachers get close to the same pay and equivalent or better benefits, including the pension and medical benefits after retirement. If each county, Nassau and Suffolk, could have a central school district authority to manage, purchase, etc., and the school districts would only exist from Principal down, it would cost a lot less.
+1 for the above. It isn't just property taxes. and the taxes arent spread out evenly. It's a faulty system when I want to better my neighborhood, by improving my property, and get penalized by more taxes (but that sounds like another thread) I_Love... did you read my response about pensions and 401k on the other thread before it was 'closed'?
In the teachers contract for Lindy I dont see merit rases. I see longevity rases (steps) and I see collums a teacher can move into with continued & higher education. A teacher can stay in the first lane their whole career if they want to, but if they work for more degrees, shouldnt they be paid for it?
Lastly, their benefits aren't as expensive as it's said to be. The are probably part of the NYS Empire Plan, its for gov't employees, and its bought in bulk. So it costs way less than in we were to buy insurance on the outside. (Buy in bulk price goes down) Also they (In Lindy) are paying 20% of the cost.
Yes, I did read your post on 401(k)s, but did not have time to respond to it before the thread was closed.
What I can say is, I understand how you feel. 401(k)s were actually only supposed to be a supplement savings in addition to employer-provided pensions and Social Security when they were first introduced. As a matter of fact, teachers still have their supplemental plan they can choose to self-fund, the 403(b). However, unlike public NYS employees, whose employer, NYS, CONTINUED to fund pensions, private employers decided that employee-funded 401(k)s, to which the employer could choose to contribute or not, was the way to go and most immediately dumped any kind of pension plan they had previously funded for employees. So, I agree, it's a gyp, but the law did not force them to do otherwise and they claimed they could not afford to provide pensions anymore.
Well, the taxpayers of NYS, most of which are on their own at retirement with their self-funded 401(k)s, truly can no longer afford to provide pensions for State employees. If 401(k)s are good enough for us, it will have to be good enough for State employees too. Sorry, but that is the reality of life in the USA in the 21st Century.
If they are not a problem, than what is the problem, and why does the local school district budget account for anywhere between 60-75% of property taxes on any given property in any town on Long Island?
I hate that any discussion like this invariably wanders off entirely into either criticism of, or rabid support for, what teachers actually do and how hard their job is. I honestly don't even care about that. The issue should always only be why are the taxes so high and what can we do about it? It just so happens that payroll (including funding for benefits) is an extremely large majority of that 60-75% Words like "deserve" "hard work" "thankless" "lazy", etc. should never enter the discussion. Let's just stick to numbers and facts, not opinions on what certain professions are worth.
Or do people actually think the average amount of property taxes on Long Island are reasonable? I really can't say I've ever heard anyone say that, and judging from the exodus of most major non-service industries from LI over the last 25+ years, it seems like the problem goes all the way to the top.
You're right as usual.
The issue is the taxes are unaffordable and getting worse every year and something has to be done.
Do the proponents of high pay and extensive benefits, including pensions, for State employees think the taxes are fair to the average taxpayer on LI, who are impacted so hard because most of their property tax money goes to school districts? Please explain why you think the status quo is fine.
Another problem, this one peculiar to LI schools, is that there are over 100 school districts on LI and each need to have a bunch of administrators, superintendents, purchasing departments, support personnel, etc. The fact that there is ONE Department of Education is probably why the schools in NYC cost the taxpayers a lot less than on LI, even though their teachers get close to the same pay and equivalent or better benefits, including the pension and medical benefits after retirement. If each county, Nassau and Suffolk, could have a central school district authority to manage, purchase, etc., and the school districts would only exist from Principal down, it would cost a lot less.
You can't seriously be suggesting that Long Island schools should be more like New York City schools can you?
It might cost less but the schools would in no way be as good. Long Island is famous for two things: good schools and high taxes( and nice beaches). I will take the high taxes to pay for the good schools.
I bought a small house in a good district- I couldve bought a big house in a bad district but I value the education my kids will get.
You can't seriously be suggesting that Long Island schools should be more like New York City schools can you?
It might cost less but the schools would in no way be as good. Long Island is famous for two things: good schools and high taxes( and nice beaches). I will take the high taxes to pay for the good schools.
I bought a small house in a good district- I couldve bought a big house in a bad district but I value the education my kids will get.
Read my post again.
I do not suggest fully consolidating all schools into the same district.
I only suggest consolidating all administration and other functions (purchasing, billing, etc.) SOLELY ABOVE THE LEVEL OF INDIVIDUAL SCHOOL PRINCIPAL for each county. How is that going to hurt your childrens' education when everything will stay the same for them? It would probably actually benefit their education because less money spent on highly paid (with correspondingly high pensions) administrators could mean more money spent on the kids. A county-wide consolidated purchasing department for all school districts would enable schools to get the things they need, be it paper or technology, a lot less expensive than the individual deals each of the 100+ school districts could muster. Another win for the kids.
Believe me, I am on the side of the kids.
Right now school districts are being run for the lifetime comfort and enrichment of its employees as dictated by the unions and providing an education to children just seems to be a byproduct. This needs to be reversed.
Having to support a reduntant infastructure in every town is part of why the schools budget is what it is every year.
What exactly do you mean by redundant infrastructure? The administration of each school district? I agree, if that was consolidated and done away with (mind you I'm not supporting actually consolidating the students and the teachers into one universal district) it would trim the budget by quite a bit, but I still think to see any real savings the benefits packages or salaries would have to be cut/frozen or totally restructured as well. Payroll in each district makes up the majority of the budget and there are only so many administrative staff (plus, we can't really get rid of school principals and functions like that).
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Originally Posted by ninjacoupe
Illegal aptments and rentals is another burden/liability. You add up the urban layout of Mcmansions and the burden is gonna weigh heavy on property owners. Property taxes also make up the majority of the funding and this will always make school taxes look like they make up an unfair percentage of your tax bill.
Yeah but how many McMansion neighborhoods do we really have? I don't think those are the people that are hurting the most. There are folks paying $12k a year in taxes on 40x100 pieces of land in areas that haven't had any new construction since the 1950s. The school budget gets set at what it is before the property assessment is ever done, not the other way around. Illegal rentals are still located in homes that are paying taxes, so even though the tax rolls aren't getting the "full" amount they should receive from a multi-family dwelling, there isn't some massive disparity.
Like you're alluding to, if we had any kind of commercial or industrial tax base to offset the burden on homeowners, it would lower or at least stall the average bill per home....but this is a Catch-22 because most of that type of industry has moved off LI specifically because the taxes are too high! If gigantic corporations can't afford to do business here, how is the average middle class family going to be able to? Without the NYC jobs we'd look like suburban Buffalo and have the unemployment to match.
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Originally Posted by ninjacoupe
Education is labor intensive and requires an educated professional workforce. Thats gonna cost as well.
Could be said about most professions and yet in the private sector people still manage to get by on whatever benefits they're lucky enough to receive. The current labor laws were established back in a time when public employees weren't treated fairly. It was intended to put them on par with their private sector brethren. Now they've been abused to the point where things are the other way around entirely, that's never what the intention was and I think it all needs to be seriously re-examined.
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Originally Posted by ninjacoupe
BTW my "tax bill is much larger than property taxes alone. Income and sales taxes plus all the taxes passed onto consumers in the cost of goods make my property taxes look cheap
That's all state and federal, not a local issue. Sucks but not what we're talking about here.
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Originally Posted by ninjacoupe
I make about what the average teacher in my district does with less of an education and much less day to day stress. I would not want to walk in their shoes everyday and feel they deserve what they are earning with the requirenments we place on them. A masters is not cheap even though some people here make you beleive it is a joke. I will NEVER advocate any working class person take a paycut or give back anything that was fought for. We as working class folks will never get those benefits back.... like pensions.
This is exactly the kind of comment that I don't think has any place in these discussions.
The issue is the taxes are unaffordable and getting worse every year and something has to be done.
Do the proponents of high pay and extensive benefits, including pensions, for State employees think the taxes are fair to the average taxpayer on LI, who are impacted so hard because most of their property tax money goes to school districts? Please explain why you think the status quo is fine.
That's a question I have yet to see answered on here! It doesn't appear that anyone thinks LI property tax is reasonable, yet some still support the machinations that make them that way. What gives??
That's a question I have yet to see answered on here! It doesn't appear that anyone thinks LI property tax is reasonable, yet some still support the machinations that make them that way. What gives??
Actually, one of the proponents of excessive teacher/cop comp did answer me on another thread (currently locked) with more reasons for high property taxes:
Could be said about most professions and yet in the private sector people still manage to get by on whatever benefits they're lucky enough to receive. The current labor laws were established back in a time when public employees weren't treated fairly. It was intended to put them on par with their private sector brethren. Now they've been abused to the point where things are the other way around entirely, that's never what the intention was and I think it all needs to be seriously re-examined.
So it isnt unusual that payroll makes up the majority of the school budgets. Just like the private sector. The contracts do get re-examined every time they are up for negotiations.
Quote:
This is exactly the kind of comment that I don't think has any place in these discussions.
Thats my opinion on teacher compensation.
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