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Oh, lord you want to talk about closing the gap? That would take an entire systemic re-doing.
I didn't want to de-rail from the topic.
Oh no no no, dear radio. You are the one who "de-railed from (sic) the topic" by bringing the subject up.
Guess you just wanted to rant at random people about something you have absolutely no plans to do anything about yourself? I am sorry someone pizzed in your cornflakes this morning. But yeah, you brought it up, dear.
So let's hear it, what's the plan? Besides screaming at other people, I mean.
Oh no no no, dear radio. You are the one who "de-railed from (sic) the topic" by bringing the subject up.
Guess you just wanted to rant at random people about something you have absolutely no plans to do anything about yourself? I am sorry someone pizzed in your cornflakes this morning. But yeah, you brought it up, dear.
So let's hear it, what's the plan? Besides screaming at other people, I mean.
Actually I just wrote that because I was tired of reading about how working people who complain about the rich are just envious and jealous or don't know any better. There is a legitimate grievance they have it's just not articulated in the best ways. And I hate it when people in the upper crust and their lower class fanbase (aspiring millionaires) talk as though it's just all a mindset and that there is just some sad juxtaposition between the two classes. That they just have to get over that and adjust their attitude and they will make it too. It's laughable. Sometimes I think that they can sound even more idiotic than the supposed class envy they hear from the downtrodden masses.
Most scientists don't factor in someone's lack of positive thinking when studying social mobility.
And what's with this idea that thinking like an employee is somehow thinking like a loser?
The main issue facing workers today is not a lack of positive thinking, a mindset, but the fact that real wages haven't risen in over thirty years. Productivity is up but the gains have not reached those at those at the bottom.
Thinking that it has to do with the right mindset is not looking at the facts that the majority of wealth in America is inherited, social mobility is the lowest here of any developed nation, and the income gap is at its highest since the days before the Great Depression.
So its not necessarily a lack of gumption, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, taking the initiative, lighting a fire under your butt, putting on your big girl panties, or whatever else right wingers say to get people to stop complaining about the crappy economic situation which is more a reality to them than the middle management/small business owner, white, insufferable baby boomer, that's always regurgitating that stuff.
Scientists studying social mobility? I'd rather hear from people that became self-made millionaires and study their mindset.
I agree that wages have barely risen at all since the 1970s , while CEO pay has skyrocketed.
I didn't say it's only positive thinking, one also has to take advantage of opportunities.
The more I have thought about it the more being an employee doesn't make much sense.
Workplaces are definitely changing. You don't see the good pensions and people working for the same place for decades much anymore...unless you work for DWP.
All employers aren't losers, but you can't expect much besides paying the bills by being an hourly employee these days.
Sure it would be great if this changed and things went back to the way they were, but do you think that will happen?
Can you think of any ways that salaries might go up? I'd like to hear them .
In the meantime it seem that entrepreneurship/business ownership is a better alternative for a lot of people. Being an employee doesn't seem to be working out too well for most people money wise or satisfaction wise.
If you are one of the few percent that has a high paying job with great benefits that you enjoy that's great, but most people don't seem to be in that situation. 70% don't like their jobs http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf...dont_care.html
If you're going to play the game, why not aim for the top?
I like these quotes, I think you will agree that both were very successful and smart people that shaped history.
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If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. Henry Ford"
If you want to talk about mindset, we should talk about accepting the dominant paradigm, the dominant mindset of those at the top who actually tell those of us at the bottom that this is how it is. It's assuming the framework that markey logic has boxed us in or like you said; "playing the game".
Of course I am not naive to this. I am doing what I am doing to get ahead in a capitalist society. Just like none of the Polish Solidarity or other anti-communist activists in the Eastern Bloc gave up their free healthcare, free housing, pensions and other services the communist governments gave them, while dismissing socialism. You have to do what you have to do to get ahead in what ever society you're in. I agree and to some extent you're correct. As are the many many people who repeat day in and day out the mantra of the rich and their ridiculous beliefs in attitude adjustments.
And yes, scientists study social mobility, political economy and other subjects dealing with the fuzzy math behind why people are falling behind when there is so much wealth out there. So a rich person might tell you nice little platitude to sell you their self help book, but a social scientist can decipher their news speak into plain English. For instance: Rich Dad Poor dad quote "Poor people work hard for their money, rich people make their money work hard for them".
What the hell is he saying there? Basically that poor people work long hours, long nights for peanuts while rich people invest, recline their chairs and wait for the money to pour in. If you challenge them on this they tend to have the audacity to define the work they're doing as far more challenging, far more mentally straining than someone working 40-60 long hours at some horrible job for low pay while raising a family and making ends meet. I mean there is just too much praise for some of these people who deal in asset destruction, asset accumulation. They think they create wealth but all they do is shift wealth. A lot of them re-distribute it from the bottom on up or flat out destroy wealth in one country and shift it to the next.
I think that more than anything workers need to adapt a new mindset, not the one they're constantly told to adopt which presumes the rigged game. One that puts their interests first. Politicians in the pocket of rich moguls have made it their mission to try and get workers to think that putting their interests first means putting banks and industrialists first, i.e. what's good for general motors is good for main street. Another example is when you hear a right wing politician complain that raising corporate taxes in X town will hurt jobs, meaning that if you anger the local fiefdom industry then they will duck out and move their factory elsewhere while leaving your town in ruins, so private power must trump public power.
I know that you're thinking that this talk is way too radical but it's just taking their presupposition and asking deeper questions. Yet, questioning these presumptions is almost blasphemy in America, as though thinking like this will most certainly denigrate you to a life of poverty because you lack the right mindset, but after living in an upper middle class business owning conservative family, I can tell you from personal experience that a lot of rich people know just as much about getting rich as you do. They ignore a lot of the evidence around them too like inherited wealth, living in a different economic time, higher wages, luck, opportunities, etc etc etc.
Its simple. Coveting what someone else has weather it's money, lifestyle wife etc is called Jealousy. And is deeply embedded in some people's minds and they feel like someone got a better deal than they did. Ok in some cases its true. Some kid was born to rich parents and you weren't. Boo f'ing hoo. Get over it. Most people are not willing to make the sacrifices it takes to have that "rich" life. Hey there are PLENTY or famous and rich people who f themselves up on drugs booze or suicides. Nobody is doing lines of coke or smoking stuff or guzzling down booze because they are on top of the world happy. Being rich has nothing to do with being happy. Rich just allows you to buy stuff live in a big house have big parties etc. I am willing to bet that if a " rich" person loses their money they lose most of their friends. Know why? Because those people weren't friends to begin with.
I never cared how much money somebody has. Even when I was dirt poor I never coveted what somebody else has.
All those people who hate the rich are miserable. There is always someone who is gonna hate x type of person because truthfully they are so unhappy with their position in life they direct their own self hate towards others.
I came from dirt poor. My mom took the high road with her rich husband. I busted my butt but everything I have my wife and I worked for without cheating stealing or robbing
Last edited by Electrician4you; 09-05-2013 at 11:47 AM..
radiolibre99 , I think we actually agree more than we disagree. I also hate the nonsense talk about the rich all being job creators. Most of their money comes from passive investments as you mentioned. Of course many of the rich or upper middle class are active business owners like your own family.
Once you get to a certain asset level you can live off your assets. "Making your money work"
I don't really like Kiyosaki personally, but his books have definately opened up employees to the business owner/employee mindset. If this had been so obvious to many people, his books would not be best sellers.
A big issue I think is that in school people really aren't taught about business ownership or being an investor .
You are now seeing a big shift in thinking from the advice of getting a "good safe job" .
Do you want a medal? It's not that simple. Why is there is this pervasive attutidue in the country that people who don't succeed just never tried. People try all the time and it's not because they were not good enough or lacked the ambition or the right mindset, it's because economic realities trump wishful thinking.
People complain about the rich because they sense that there is something not right. That there is something not fair about the uneven distribution of wealth, the social class hierarchy, the incompe gap, etc. But most people choose to spew out things that seem like class envy or jealousy to the most insufferable of conservative stooges or butt kissing middle management types. People do not sit there and read study after study done on social mobility, the economy, wage stagnation, inflation, etc. They just cannot articulate their grievences well enough so they resort to "hating". A lot of people do not hate on the rich because they're wealthy, they're complaining about the lack of opportunities to get up there too and complaing about the enormous social/political power they have to always get things to fall in their favor as a class of people.
Again I agree. Anything that helps people help themselves is a positive thing weather it be training programs or SBA loans. It's obvious what lobbyists do and the politicians that work with them do...get better benefits for the rich. Of course there are also worker unions too and they have lobbyists but I think the ones that work for the big corporations are a lot worse.
People should be upset , and they should be upset for the right reasons. It actually takes quite a bit of time to read about history and the reasons for things changing over time. Without understanding the system thoroughly it's hard or impossible to change it.
I always think there would be riots if more people really knew what was going on.
Too many people find history or politics boring though. I guess i'm one of those people that would rather watch a documentary versus the latest action movie.
This one is pretty interesting and sounds up your alley. It tells the story of an apartment building in Manhattan where some of the richest and most powerful people in America live and their influence (or manipulation) in politics. That said not all of the rich are manipulating politicians .
Regarding people trying to win . It's hard to say. If you are trying to succeed by working for a low wage which is what most jobs are , it doesn't seem to be a realistic way to try.
I'm not sure if there are any studies or ways to quantify a person "trying" .
Nowadays I think there are less excuses to start a business or work for themselves with the internet. Many are making a living with internet marketing for example.
This forum/site covers exactly that : Making Money
I don't know how many people working min wage are looking into those types of opportunities and pursuing them during their spare time.
If someone truly puts the time in to learn something , and puts in an honest effort and then doesn't succeed and keeps trying something else and keeps learning , I find it hard to believe that they won't eventual succeed.
Dave Ramsey says " If you do poor people stuff you end up poor , if you do rich people stuff you end up rich"
This link below shows the difference in how rich people spend their time versus poor people. The differences are striking. For example 63% listen to audiobooks during commute verus 5% of poor. 81% of wealthy maintain a to do list versus 19% of poor. There are many others. And before you say "the poor cant buy audiobooks" these are free to borrow from most libraries..Virtually all of these things dont have to cost money..but they are habits.. http://www.daveramsey.com/blog/20-th...h-do-every-day
Last edited by jm1982; 09-05-2013 at 12:46 PM..
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But yeah, you brought it up, dear.
