nfl question for the la football fans (Los Angeles, Anaheim: transplants, lease)

[pbergen]

now that the much-maligned georgia frontiere has passed away, some people out there are speculating that the stl rams may try to get out of their stadium lease in a few years and return to la. just check out the comments section of the recent espn.com article on ms. frontiere's passing and you'll see what i mean:

ESPN - Conversations: Georgia Frontiere, Rams owner who moved team to St. Louis, dies

of course, the city and county of la and state of california still can't figure out how and where to build a new nfl stadium, nevermind decide if it's worth renovating the la coliseum to meet modern nfl standards. it's obvious the nfl desperately wants to place one, if not two teams in the greater la area whether by expansion or relocation, but with the stadium issue as unsettled as ever it's hard to say what'll happen.

so here's my question for the la sports fans here (especially the die-hard football fans who root(ed) for the rams or raiders): what are your thoughts on all of this? what would you like to see happen, and what do you think will ultimately transpire? how much longer do you think it'll take for all of this to play out? i have no doubt that it's a matter of when, not if, an nfl franchise or two ends up in greater la by expansion or relocation, but as an outsider (i live in nyc) and football junkie, i'm curious to hear what the so cal football fans think. here on the east coast we only periodically hear about the la nfl situation, but perhaps you guys have some insight or perspective that i'm not privy to.

[pbergen]

oh and for the record, i really miss the rams-niners rivalry from the '80s. even as a giants fan growing up in the shadows of giants stadium, i always enjoyed watching montana, craig, rice, and lott go at it against everett, dickerson, ellard, and greene. of course, back in the day my giants also played some classic games against both of those teams. in fact, probably one of the most crushing defeats my team experienced in the '80s was the 1989 nfc divisional playoff, which we sports fans in ny sarcastically refer to as "the flipper anderson game": that's the one in which jim everett threw a game-ending 30-yard touchdown pass to flipper anderson in sudden death overtime, with anderson running all the way through the end zone and into the tunnel as the rams celebrated, while everyone in the ny area just sat there in shock (or cursed at their tvs, as i did).

is flipper anderson still running through that tunnel? that's the one lasting image i have of him, other than his 336 yard game against the saints earlier that season.

horrible memory for me personally (and one that i'll never forget), but oddly enough, thinking about that game and that era only serves to remind me how much i miss the days when the rams played in la, despite having no rooting interest in the team. i know they still play in the nfc west, but it's not the same as when they were based in so cal.
i mean, seriously - even today, hearing the words "st. louis rams" feels weird to me, and i'm a lifelong east coast guy.

perhaps it was because of the whole "la vs. sf" rivalry, not to mention the fact that a lot of people across the country love to hate any team based in la, but somehow the rams seemed more relevant and imposing to me before they relocated to st. louis (no offense to any midwesterners here). at the very least, the rams-niners rivalry doesn't seem to have as much pizzazz as it used to.

now that i think about it, the raiders, who'd developed a large and passionate fan base while playing in oakland up through the early '80s, seemed to gain an even greater aura of mystique after moving to la, although unlike the rams they've been able to maintain a national following despite moving back to a smaller market.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by pbergen

in fact, probably one of the most crushing defeats my team experienced in the '80s was the 1989 nfc divisional playoff, which we sports fans in ny sarcastically refer to as "the flipper anderson game": that's the one in which jim everett threw a game-ending 30-yard touchdown pass to flipper anderson in sudden death overtime, with anderson running all the way through the end zone and into the tunnel as the rams celebrated, while everyone in the ny area just sat there in shock (or cursed at their tvs, as i did).

That was revenge for this game that I attended at Anaheim Stadium. I was sitting about the 35 yard line on the east side.

NFL playoffs, 1984-85 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And you new yorkers have had your fair share with the la teams: 1977 yankees/Dodgers, 1978 Yankees/Dodgers, and 1973 NBA Finals (though the Lakers won the year before).

But back to your post. It is bizarre that there is no NFL team in LA. Even when the Rams played at the mammoth Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum, they would rarely (like once every three years) sell out and never in time for the 72 hour TV blackout rule. Pretty much the same for the Raiders, though I think the Coliseum was reconfigured to a smaller seating stadium and the Raiders were on local TV a couple of times.

A couple of thoughts; so many people in LA are transplants from other cities and countries. The sports passion in LA is nothing compared to Buffalo, Green Bay, Washington DC, Pittsburgh, etc. A lot of people in LA are in "like" with their teams not in "love" with them like native towns.
Also, there are so many other things to do in LA in fall and winter that pro football has a lot of competition. In the east coast and midwest, sitting next to a big TV when it is snowing outside is about the best thing going.

That whole thing with (Madam Ram) Georgia Frontiere (spit) puts a real bad taste in my mouth. Carroll Rosenbloom was an avid swimmer. He drowned in four feet of water under very mysterious circumstances. Rumors were all over the place. Georgia (spit) hooks up with Dominic Frontiere (her seventh or eighth husband) and leaves Carroll's son Steve Rosenbloom out in the dust on Rams leadership. A lot of people were PO when she moved the team to Anaheim and later St.Louis.

Frontiere, 80, was 'villain' to SoCal fans - Topix

[Niners fan]

A lot of us NFL fans in the LA market don't really want a team here. That's because if there was a team here then their game would be shown on TV each week when there might be a better game that could be broadcast.

I know that is an odd view but you would be surprised how many people I have talked to who think that same way!

[SandyCo]

I don't care if an NFL team ever comes back to L.A. We've lived without one this long. I also think that Angelenos would raise the roof if public funds were ever used to either renovate the Coliseum, or build a brand new stadium. If a corporation wants to use their private funds, let them go for it. Our tax dollars should go elsewhere - education, public transportation, etc.

[the one]

ya i miss a pro football team in la (the 2nd largest market), but we get some pretty good action from ucla and usc. it would be great to have a team for the tailgating and such, local pride. but i def would not want my money going to a stadium. if there were to be one (fantastically privately funded), the (retro fitted)coliseum would be ideal. not so much the rose rose bowl, its nice but the coliseum is in LA after all, and historic/nostalgic. as long as its close enough to downtown im fine. none of this los angeles angels of anaheim mess. carson and the home depot complex would be good, but diifficult given how close csu dominguez hills is. i am not opposed to a new stadium in lynwood because it would bring jobs and revitalize the area but you would displace folks and there are a lot of... "lynwood?!?!? is that safe?" people out there. so who knows. if it happens it wont happen for at least another 5 years. if it happens. its like a double eclipse. the citys gotta be in on it. the site. and not to mention the nfl and the owners and whose coming and well its just a lot of work. this has been grumbled about for years. who really knows.

[hgclyde]

Heres's my opinion: The NFL doesn't want a team here. Because if they did the would have selected sites in Carson or Anaheim. They like the idea of showing a variety of games from across the country and this makes money for the NFL. Also, like it been said before on this board no one wants to pay to build a stadium for owners who, would leave on a drop of a hat for Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, or Portland, OR. There's still bad blood between the NFL and the Black community saying Exposition Park is not safe. ( Based on that statement alone the new Yankee Stadium would be build in Scarsdale,NY in Westchester County; Or Central Park in Manhattan or even somewhere in the Hamptons) Most of us don't don't believe the NFL. anyway.

[pbergen]

Originally Posted by Charles

That was revenge for this game that I attended at Anaheim Stadium. I was sitting about the 35 yard line on the east side.

NFL playoffs, 1984-85 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And you new yorkers have had your fair share with the la teams: 1977 yankees/Dodgers, 1978 Yankees/Dodgers, and 1973 NBA Finals (though the Lakers won the year before).

true enough. but that loss to the rams in '89 and the dodgers' upset of the mets in the '88 nlcs (games 4 and 7 were particularly hard to swallow) are still two of the worst playoff losses in my lifetime.

on the flip side -
as a mets fan i naturally hate the yankees, which means i'm thrilled whenever they lose, no matter who the opponent is. so i can honestly say that the dodgers' triumphs over the skanks in '63 and '81 (and '55 for that matter, even though they were still based in brooklyn) bring a smile to my face. believe me, any loss by the yanks is just as enjoyable for the typical mets or red sox fan as it is for the victorious team's fans.

But back to your post. It is bizarre that there is no NFL team in LA. Even when the Rams played at the mammoth Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum, they would rarely (like once every three years) sell out and never in time for the 72 hour TV blackout rule. Pretty much the same for the Raiders, though I think the Coliseum was reconfigured to a smaller seating stadium and the Raiders were on local TV a couple of times.

A couple of thoughts; so many people in LA are transplants from other cities and countries. The sports passion in LA is nothing compared to Buffalo, Green Bay, Washington DC, Pittsburgh, etc. A lot of people in LA are in "like" with their teams not in "love" with them like native towns.
Also, there are so many other things to do in LA in fall and winter that pro football has a lot of competition. In the east coast and midwest, sitting next to a big TV when it is snowing outside is about the best thing going.

very interesting thoughts. i didn't want to allude to east coasters' perceptions of the average la sports fan for fear of offending anyone, but it does seem like many la fans (not all) are a lot more laid-back about their teams. here in nyc, or for that matter, philly and boston, sports is the end-all, be-all for many people. fans live and die with their teams, so to speak. i never got the sense that most angelenos were nearly as passionate about any of the local teams - sure, they'll support a winner like the lakers and dodgers, esp. in their championship seasons, but sports doesn't seem to consume the average la person the way it does where i live. i'm sure the weather/beaches/outdoor activities in so cal have something to do with it. but in ny, boston, philly, and chicago, there's tons of stuff to do as well (albeit it's mostly indoors this time of year) yet sports still rules the day for many, many people. personally, i think people in the northeast are simply more intense (not necessarily a good thing) and professional sports is just more ingrained as something which your life revolves around if you live here.

even with transplants, i feel that the dominant la sports culture has a different effect than in the northeast or upper midwest. here in nyc we have tons of transplants as well. in fact, the majority of people living in manhattan these days didn't grow up in the borough or even the ny/nj metropolitan region; by and large, most manhattanites are "new" new yorkers (yet they often adopt the pretentious manhattan attitude within days of arriving in nyc, LOL). and what's funny is that because sports - baseball in particular - is so big in greater nyc, even the transplants and casual fans get caught up in it, while the die-hards like myself are amped up about our teams year-round. the yanks and mets are so huge in ny/nj that even if you hate sports, you can't help but be bombarded with news about the teams, regardless of whether the team is winning or losing, and regardless if it's july or january. as a matter of fact, if the giants weren't in the middle of this miraculous super bowl run, i'd probably be hearing something right now about a-rod, jeter, or perhaps some more johan santana trade rumors.

That whole thing with (Madam Ram) Georgia Frontiere (spit) puts a real bad taste in my mouth. Carroll Rosenbloom was an avid swimmer. He drowned in four feet of water under very mysterious circumstances. Rumors were all over the place. Georgia (spit) hooks up with Dominic Frontiere (her seventh or eighth husband) and leaves Carroll's son Steve Rosenbloom out in the dust on Rams leadership. A lot of people were PO when she moved the team to Anaheim and later St.Louis.

Frontiere, 80, was 'villain' to SoCal fans - Topix

i knew georgia was hated in la, but i was never aware of the mysterious circumstances surrounding hubby #6's mysterious death until fairly recently. talk about class. anyhow, i still don't know everything about that situation, so i'm wondering how she got off scot-free? seems awfully suspicious and all too convenient for her.

[pbergen]

for those who are in support of bringing an nfl team back to la:

which proposed stadium site do you think makes the most sense in terms of location, highway/mass transit infrastructure, proximity to the most desirable demographics, etc? carson? adjacent to dodger stadium? the coliseum? the rose bowl? anaheim? somewhere else?

and if the rams were to get out of their stadium lease in a few years, would you welcome them back with open arms, or would you be indifferent or upset? would you rather see an expansion team? the franchise that seems the most likely to relocate right now (if what i've read has any credibility) is the jacksonville jaguars, based on their tiny market size and lousy, cavernous stadium - the jaguars have to reduce seating capacity by covering almost 10,000 seats with a tarp at every home game so that their local broadcasts don't get blacked out, yet it still happened several times this past season. and jacksonville's entire metro area is a mere 1.2 million, which is a tiny fraction of la's 17 million or so.

as an outsider to the la area, i think jacksonville is the franchise i'd be most in favor of relocating, simply b/c they're a newer team that doesn't have the roots and history of, say, the bills, vikings, or even the saints. i wouldn't mind seeing the rams get relocated back to la, either, but again, not sure how you guys in so cal feel about that.

[pbergen]

btw, were rams games blacked out even in the '70s and '80s, when the team was consistently successful (but could never quite go all the way)? they won the nfc west almost every season in the '70s, and made their only super bowl as an la franchise in '79. i know the coliseum is enormous, but i'm shocked that a team that successful would have trouble filling seats. and what about the games in anaheim in the '80s, when they were in the playoffs more often than not? i know the rams never won a super bowl during that period, but you could argue that they were one of the 4 or 5 most successful teams from the early '70s through the late '80s.