U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California > Los Angeles
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 04-21-2016, 09:07 PM
 
Location: On the water.
10,459 posts, read 6,424,368 times
Reputation: 8699

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOIGUY View Post
I don't agree with you about the USSR being a socialist regime or not, but this is clearly not on topic.

Socialism is about who controls the means of production in a country, not whether CA has a $15 minimum wage or whether workers get 5 sick days off a year.
I don't understand what you are trying to say. The USSR was a Communist regime, not a socialist regime. Regime is political control. Not economic structure.

And yes, socialism is about who controls production, private ownerships or government ownerships. And that is precisely why the European nations aren't true socialist nations. European industries are not government owned or controlled, although many aspects, such as labor agreements, are strongly regulated to favor social welfare. All nations are trending this way with urbanization.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-21-2016, 09:21 PM
 
Location: On the water.
10,459 posts, read 6,424,368 times
Reputation: 8699
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE View Post
You do what you have to do in your retirement time. Have fun with that. I often think it is interesting though that so many are coming here to the USA in anyway they can get here, be it legally or by braking the law just so they can participate in the American experience. Still we have so many that want to paint a nice picture of Socialism around the world.

Tell me what say you of Greece? What say you of Venezuela? What say you of Cuba?

What is interesting to note about Cuba is that while the nation as a whole is broke and no one has any money, the family that fought against wealth and privilege, the family that took over Cuba, the Castro family are very wealthy. Fidel has a net worth of $900 million while his brother Raul has a net worth of $100 million.
I don't hear many who want to paint a nice picture of Socialism around the world at all. I do hear many praising socially progressive policies in many countries around the world that embrace democratic socialist philosophies. There's a huge difference. Many people chatter about Socialism without knowing what it is. Conditioned by the old anti-Communist propaganda days, obviously. Helps to know what you're talking about.

Greece? Venezuela? Cuba? What do they have to do with what we are talking about? Greece is the only one of the three that has anything remotely to compare with the US. And Greece's economic problems are a result of seriously unrealistic borrowing relative to productiviy potentials. Plus a number of other pressures not shared by most other European nations. Cuba and Venezuela don't have resources and industry to compare with anything in Europe or the US. And Cuba is a closed Communist dictatorship. What's to think about in comparison?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2016, 09:39 PM
 
Location: West Hollywood
3,196 posts, read 2,359,743 times
Reputation: 5262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
I don't understand what you are trying to say. The USSR was a Communist regime, not a socialist regime. Regime is political control. Not economic structure.

And yes, socialism is about who controls production, private ownerships or government ownerships. And that is precisely why the European nations aren't true socialist nations. European industries are not government owned or controlled, although many aspects, such as labor agreements, are strongly regulated to favor social welfare. All nations are trending this way with urbanization.
That's communism. Communist governments control production, leaving no room for private industry and forcing citizens to work with no control over pay, worker protections, etc.
Socialism is about social control of production and government. The government doesn't own the means of production in socialism, but the people heavily influence it through the government via regulations, profit sharing, worker protections, worker benefits, etc. Essentially an uber-democratic form of society where plutocracy has no place. We have a plutocracy in America.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2016, 11:09 PM
 
Location: On the water.
10,459 posts, read 6,424,368 times
Reputation: 8699
Quote:
Originally Posted by MordinSolus View Post
That's communism. Communist governments control production, leaving no room for private industry and forcing citizens to work with no control over pay, worker protections, etc.
Socialism is about social control of production and government. The government doesn't own the means of production in socialism, but the people heavily influence it through the government via regulations, profit sharing, worker protections, worker benefits, etc. Essentially an uber-democratic form of society where plutocracy has no place. We have a plutocracy in America.
Yes. And no. What you define above is a totalitarian Communist regime of everything government owned AND controlled. Pure Socialism is social ownership but with democratic controls. European governments are neither.
Quote:
Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production, as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment.
Quote:
Communism is a social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.[5][6]
In either case, it doesn't matter to this discussion too much except as an example of how silly most people's fears are about America becoming Socialist "like Europe". Europe isn't even Socialist. Free enterprise reigns on both sides of the pond. But, with increasing population, coupled with decreasing employment, increasing urbanization, and increasing wealth concentration, progressive democratic socialism will be required to manage the common populations.

Give the people fat, sugar, salt, Virtual Reality, social networking, and mood-pharmaceuticals along with safe warm shelter - good to go. Under control. Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Already taking shape.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-22-2016, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles (Native)
24,293 posts, read 13,761,048 times
Reputation: 11458
MordinSolus ,
You might find this interesting since you live in West Hollywood
$15 Minimum Wage Will Decimate West Hollywood, Says Op-Ed - Eater LA
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-23-2016, 02:57 PM
 
5,427 posts, read 5,673,470 times
Reputation: 2400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Didn't say anything about those countries being great or successful. Simply responded to the declaration Surprise made. Which declaration was both wrong and wrongfully inferred failure due to socialist structuring.

The USSR was not a socialist country. It was a oppressive, totalitarian communist regime.

Ditto: China.

N. Korea is also an oppressive, totalitarian communist military dictatorship.

Ditto Cuba.

No parallels in them to the declaration nor this topic.

As to whether socialism is good or bad - really a topic for a different thread in a different forum. I will say, however, that I don't subscribe to any ideology whatsoever including socialism.

Also, finally, pointing to those backward and emerging countries while discussing the benefits of specific democratic-socialist benefits to large, economically advanced nations is entirely disingenuous.

If you want to draw negative parallels to socially progressive programs - a direction that all highly developed countries experiencing intensifiying urbanization are taking and benefiting their citizens with - compare to European nations. And be sure to identify any specific ways in which the social benefits of those social democracies are causing economic burden - as opposed to other turmoils.
I started a thread in the history subforum about life under Soviet Union, and Mao. Someone who actually lived in Russia at the time posted his life experiences. Apparently it was not so bad.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-23-2016, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
9,832 posts, read 7,336,965 times
Reputation: 6288
$15/hr is still peanuts in an expensive coastal city like Los Angeles. It's the equivalent of $10/hr in places like French Lick, Indiana, and it doesn't even fully kick in for another four years. It will be worth even less by then.

The idea that $15/hr is somehow going to kill the incentive to create and innovate among the masses is just laughable. That's just silly.

You want devastation, OP? Take a guess which metropolitan area has the largest percentage of residents living in poverty. That is what your precious job creators have given LA over the years.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2016, 12:05 AM
 
Location: West Hollywood
3,196 posts, read 2,359,743 times
Reputation: 5262
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondChandlerLives View Post
$15/hr is still peanuts in an expensive coastal city like Los Angeles. It's the equivalent of $10/hr in places like French Lick, Indiana, and it doesn't even fully kick in for another four years. It will be worth even less by then.

The idea that $15/hr is somehow going to kill the incentive to create and innovate among the masses is just laughable. That's just silly.

You want devastation, OP? Take a guess which metropolitan area has the largest percentage of residents living in poverty. That is what your precious job creators have given LA over the years.
Of course, the argument from the "pro-business," anti-thinking opponents of the minimum wage increase will just say that that's due to Los Angeles already making "job creators" pay too much.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2016, 05:21 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles (Native)
24,293 posts, read 13,761,048 times
Reputation: 11458
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondChandlerLives View Post
$15/hr is still peanuts in an expensive coastal city like Los Angeles. It's the equivalent of $10/hr in places like French Lick, Indiana, and it doesn't even fully kick in for another four years. It will be worth even less by then.

The idea that $15/hr is somehow going to kill the incentive to create and innovate among the masses is just laughable. That's just silly.

You want devastation, OP? Take a guess which metropolitan area has the largest percentage of residents living in poverty. That is what your precious job creators have given LA over the years.
Yes , you are correct $15 hr isn't much to live on in LA, one needs $33 an hour to afford the average apartment
So should minimum wage actually be $33hr?

The incentive will to be to create automation to reduce labor costs . The big chains have already implemented ordering kiosks , but it's unlikely the mom and pops will have the money to do that .

I know a lot of the pro $15 crowd seems fine with the eliminate of the whole fast food industry or mom and pop businesses anyways ...and also the elimination of WalMart and places like that because they
" don't provide good jobs anyways"
But then where will these people work ? Will a tech startup or law firm likely hire a laid off employee from a fast food restaurant ?

Call me stupid , but I think making $10hr is better than having no job and making zero..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2016, 08:32 AM
 
Location: On the water.
10,459 posts, read 6,424,368 times
Reputation: 8699
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm1982 View Post
Call me stupid , but I think
Lot of bleeding tongues this morning I suspect ...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California > Los Angeles
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top